No Christian would deny that all things necessary for salvation are to be found in the Bible; but that is not the same as saying that one’s own reading of the Bible should be the sole guide to religious truth. We are sheep that have gone astray, and if we guide ourselves, we shall fall into the ditch. The texts we accept as Scripture are so because the early Church said they were, so even at this first stage, tradition is important; without it we should not know what Scripture was. The texts were addressed to Christians who were not converted by reading them, but who had been converted by the power of the Holy Spirit through the work of the first Apostles and their disciples; they were never intended to be systematic expositions of doctrine – or to be understood away from the common faith of the Church – hence St Paul’s exhortations to be faithful to the traditions, written and oral, of which he was the inheritor and evangelist The Bible proves what the Church teaches, but was not used as a teaching tool by the early Church, and, left to itself, it cannot teach us – because by ourselves, we cannot fully understand it.
Our faith does not come from applying our reason to the critical study of the Bible, but by having apprehended, through the power of the Spirit, that it is God’s word; faith precedes our prayerful reading of Scripture. The Church cannot teach what is not in Scripture, but the individual cannot fully comprehend what is in Scripture solely by his or her own unaided efforts, and for the individual, who only knows what Scripture is through the tradition of the Church, to take onto him or herself the task of telling the Church they understand it better than they do, is a form of spiritual pride from which decency ought to cause us to shrik in horror; it is a sign of our fallen state that so many do not. By sharing in the life of a Christian community, by partaking of the sacraments and allowing the grace of God to sanctify us, we can expect to grow in our spiritual life and to better understand the Scriptures.
In understanding the Bible it is indispensable to have some knowledge of the tradition of the Church. The Church not only put the Bible before us (and pace Bosco, it forbade not the reading of Scripture, but the reading and individual interpretation of inaccurate texts, taking the view, which Bosco shows was right, that unaided, the individual would fall into grave error and spiritual pride), it prepares our minds to read it aright and to apprehend its truths. It arranges the doctrines to be found in the Bible for us, it distinguishes the inessentials from the essentials and, by the rich treasury of its interpretations, it helps expand our understanding of the word of God.
We are not the first Christians, and, unless He comes again soon, we shall not be the last. We can elect to proceed as no early Christian ever did – that it to read a book they did not have, decide we know what it means, and go our own way, confident in our personal infallibility, or we can do as they did – listen to Scripture in the body of the Church and grow in our understanding of it through the life of the Church.
Dave Smith said:
I wonder what would become of the Bosco’s of this world should all things Christian, including every last Bible, were suddenly placed in a huge bonfire by the purveyors of the new social order. Would they have faith or listen to the Truth as spoken by those who transformed their lives through belief and by their witness to Christ within their lives? Would the lives of the saintly men and women who received His Grace and communicated with God through prayer be enough; as they are truly taught by God. And there is a similarity which ends right there with Bosco and his type; for the each will claim to be taught by God directly. But where is the proof; the community of believers that Christ has redeemed and God has taught and to whom the Holy Spirit is given? I wonder what the ‘new spirit’ that Bosco received on the bus would believe. Would he then listen to the Church or would he end with nothing; for he would have nothing ‘tangible’ to base his belief on . . . just a feeling of something different.
It only points to the fact that the Catholc Church for one, has Rites of the Sacraments and a liturgy which conveys Truth and confers Grace and cannot be thrown upon a heap to be burned. The lives of the saints lives in the hearts and minds of saintly people and cannot be burned or destroyed.
Tradition is a hallowed thing and it does not depend on Scripture is also a hallowed thing; but Scripture depends upon the Church (not the other way around) . . . to keep it alive, intact and meaningful in every generation. Though the loss of Christian writing woudl be a horrendous loss to the People of God it would neither annihilate the faith nor impede its growth. God will teach us in the recesses of our hearts and He will be taught by the communication of those who are faithful within the Church to those who have received the grace to listen. The faith in Japan, China and Russia spring to mind: surviving many years underground after being condemned and banned.
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NEO said:
You’re right, of course, but we have another, more accessible, example. One needs only to look at what became the AME church before 1865, with a membership officially denied the right to an education, it became a very strong church, as it continues to be to this day. Bosco would be as clueless as chocolate milk.
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed he would.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco himself is sowing confusion. I thought he had said he met Jesus, but he now claims he got a new Spirit. But he told us this was not the Holy Spirit. Since there is no Scriptural record of Jesus giving someone a new spirit, or indeed, of any Spirit save the Holy Spirit, I am even more puzzled by what Bosco claims!
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Dave Smith said:
I believe it might be an indescribable feeling, perhaps??? I get these at times if I have an illness coming on.
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chalcedon451 said:
I am awaiting a response from him, but that will doubtless muddy the waters further.
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ginnyfree said:
Yes, SF. I guess that is why those who watched the scrolls collected by the Romans being burnt did not despair of their salvation. Or why those behind the Iron Curtain were still being saved during the reign of Communism. Or why those in the refugee camps of Iraq and Syria and elsewhere know they are saved even without any hope of seeing an actual church building again perhaps till the day they pass from this life to the next. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dave Smith said:
The traditions, the rites, the liturgies and the core principles and the moral theology cannot be burnt or annihilated by Satan try as he might.
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Bosco the Great said:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, and your point?
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Bosco the Great said:
Scripture is given by god. Some like to believe a state run religion gave it to us.
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chalcedon451 said:
Can you point me to where, in Scripture, God tells us what books are to be Scripture? If not, you have to accept that the Church founded by Christ is the instrument God chose to tell us what Scripture is. That being so, it it is only logical that, being inspired by God to tell us what books were Scripture, it is inspired to tell us what they mean. You own position is illogical, unhistorical and untenable.
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Dave Smith said:
And further, when that quote was made it was the Old Testament Scriptures that were in mind as no others had been ratified: the Scriptures at that time were considered the Septuagint and, of course, the authority of that was the Old Testament Hebrew Church.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed, but Bosco has zero understanding of this, or, indeed, of anything. If you can bear it, read through his recent comments!
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Dave Smith said:
Sadly, I already made that mistake.
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chalcedon451 said:
It is quite amazing that the same misreadings keep coming up, and however often they are corrected, like the dog, he goes back to his vomit.
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ginnyfree said:
Bosco, as I’m sure you’ve already been told by other apologists, that passage doesn’t say that Scripture is SUFFICIENT though. BIG OMISSION to get around. Can ya ‘splain that one? Good luck. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Help me out. What is my bible lacking?
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ginnyfree said:
Okie dokie Bosco. I will tell you what your Bible is lacking: YOUR OBEDIENCE. It is a dead letter on a page because you fail to do that which it says you should do and you refuse to believe that which it tells you is the truth. Instead you prefer to mock its Holy Writ by using a few of its words to nullify the rest. It is a holy thing Bosco, but if you ignore its warnings and admonishments, you have only you to blame. So, there is the lack: your obedience. You don’t really believe it. If you did you’d fear to sin against it anymore. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
Apocrypha?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
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Bosco the Great said:
Good sister ginny, im still waiting for what my bible is lacking. it has Christ and him crucified. Whats missing? Thanks in advance.
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ginnyfree said:
Your obedience.
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Bosco the Great said:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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ginnyfree said:
Ever hear of Baptismal regeneration Bosco? Been there done that. Next…………..God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
P.S. If you went looking for a better “reborn Christian” experience that the one you got at Baptism, I hate to disappoint you, but there is no other than that. We die with Christ to the world in the waters of Baptism and come up out of that bath of rebirth, reborn. It is a once in a lifetime event and cannot be repeated no matter how frenzied the congregation gets when the try for anything else among themselves. You already were reborn when your parents took you to the Church for your Baptism as a baby clown. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
I hope I sit next to you and Hitler at the wedding feast.
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Bosco the Great said:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
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chalcedon451 said:
As you exemplify – Jesus tells you his body and blood are bread and wine, you don’t believe him; Paul tells you you can lose your salvation, you don’t believe him; Jesus renames Simon ‘Rock’ and says he will build his church on this rock, and you don’t believe him. Thank you for showing yourself up, Bosco – feel free to continue.
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Bosco the Great said:
You do not believe people are born again and you cant even fathom it. The roman state run religion has told its flock that all that is needed is a cracker and a man in a costume.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, I do not believe that you are ‘born again’ by yourself, there is no example of this in the Gospels. If you can show me one case where we see anyone born again without them being part of the Church straight away, I will accept your word. If you can’t, then you are, yet again, busted by Scripture.
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ginnyfree said:
That is a heavenly thing” reborn with Christ through the waters of Baptism. It is an encounter with the living God as are ALL of the Sacraments. He is a God of the living not of the dead and He is experienced in ALL of the Sacraments and never leaves Heaven to do it! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Your costumes only get 6 rituals, I mean sacrements. Guess they don’t go to the state run heaven.
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ginnyfree said:
Come on, Bosco. You’re being ridiculous. Read Exodus 28 and find out what God really desires as vesture for His priests. You say you believe the Scriptures, yet this foundational instruction directly to Moses from God regarding the attire His priests will wear while ministering to Him is ignored. You haven’t got a sufficient argument against this and it is His Commandment to Moses and in several places it clearly states that if they DON’T do this, they will die! That’s God giving men a death penalty for not wearing some pretty elaborate vestments. And if you try to worm out of this by claiming Jesus simplified everything, remember this is Law and Jesus said Himself that He didn’t come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Not a single iota of the Law is gone and since the death penalty is required as sufficient correction for those men who dare minister in the Temple without all these special garments I’d say it is no small matter. Can you say anything more about costumes and holy men? No. Bosco, you really can’t. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
vestments were for the priests, the Levites, you numb nut. Levites are the priests, not any homo that wanders off the street. get a grip
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ginnyfree said:
I’ve got a good grip, (for the most part on my better days) and I’m wondering if your generalizations have you thinking all priests are of that persuasion or not? Please tell me what kind of priest you thought John Paul II was. Be honest. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
Oh don’t start him – he’ll get on the penance and indulge his own taste for whips – don’t go there, it isn’t nice or decent where he goes.
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Bosco the Great said:
I never gave good brother Johnpaul much thought. I know he used to whip himself to get closer to god, but after that, I really didn’t follow the guy.
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Bosco the Great said:
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
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chalcedon451 said:
But you told us it was not the Holy Spirit which came on you. Have you changed your mind?
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Bosco the Great said:
The holy spirit makes one born again. The new spirit was with god and knows him. The person now has a spirit that knows Jesus without having to move a finger. I thought my imagination was running amok. I tried to shake it off.
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chalcedon451 said:
Man-made mumbo jumbo, Bosco. Show me where, in Scripture, God sends a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. There is only one Spirit with God, the Holy Spirit, and if you have been invaded by another Spirit, it is not holy – as your blog and your words show, What are your fruits Bosco? They are spite, gossip, malice – where do we see in you any of the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Nowhere. You are preaching a flase gospel which is not of Christ, which is why no one here receives you. Repent and ask for the Holy Spirit to come upon you, Bosco.
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Bosco the Great said:
Show you scripture. You say scripture doesn’t mean what it says. Its all allegory. Your religion doesn’t care what scripture says either, that’s why they call men father, vainly repeat prayer and bow themselves befor the works of their hands. When did you all care about scripture?
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chalcedon451 said:
No, I have never said that. As usual you change the subject and go back to your vomit.
You say you have a spirit of God, but not the Holy Spirit – there is no such thing in Scripture; you reject Jesus’ teaching about his church and his body and blood; you reject extra Scriptural writing yet cannot explain where else you can find the books of the Bible.
Where, in Scripture, does God give a spirit not the Holy Spirit? Unless you can answer this, I call the spirit in you a liar and spawn of Satan. I see its fruit – lies and deceit.
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ginnyfree said:
The Sacrament of Confirmation Bosco. Both passages confirm Confirmation; the first as it is in the New Covenant in Jesus’ Blood, the second as prophetic typology of what will be in the Church to come after the Messiah comes into the world. Both are true and both uphold the teaching of the Church on this Sacrament. Tell me Bosco, did you leave shortly after your Confirmation and what name did you pick as the particular Saint you wanted to honor or imitate? Some on, what is your Confirmation name? Cough it up. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
No one goes up to heaven except he who came down from heaven. The new spirit came down from heaven where it Knew Jesus. The spirit you have now was made here on earth and doesn’t know Jesus.
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chalcedon451 said:
Again, you misread Scripture. In that verse Jesus is clearly talking about himself, he came down from heaven. There is no Spirit other than the Holy Spirit which proceeds from God. Whatever Spirit inhabits you, we see its fruit, and they are not those Paul says are the fruits of the Spirit, By your wors we see what spirit it is.
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed his quotation is about Jesus Himself. And rightly, the Father will not recognize us unless He recognizes Christ in us by our possession of Sanctifying Grace which Christ has provided for us. We then share this Grace which Christ won for us and have a portion with Him in the next world.
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chalcedon451 said:
There are times when he amazes me – how is it possible to so consistently misread what is on the pages?
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Dave Smith said:
. . . and the lips of Christians for 2000 years.
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dfxc said:
I find him less amazing than those of you willing to engage him. Me? Well I’ll gladly stand behind Fr. Truqui if anyone’s got his number, but I ain’t going in alone…
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ginnyfree said:
Who is Fr. Truqui?
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dfxc said:
Current Vatican Exorcist.
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ginnyfree said:
Ah Ha! Maybe we could crate Bosco and buy a ticket to Rome with no return address. Have you gotten his number yet? It would be fair to let him no he’s got a package coming. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dave Smith said:
When did Cesare Truqui replace Gabriele Amarth . . . I wasn’t aware that it occurred. I wonder if Amorth was a bit too outspoken for Pope Francis. Do you have any news on why the change occurred?
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dfxc said:
No, not much news. It looks like Truqui just started taking the press interviews in April or May, so maybe its the media and not the Vatican that annointed him. Amorth is 90 after all, the man could do with a break… Heck, let’s get them both.
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Dave Smith said:
I think we need about a thousand of them in Washington DC alone. Then there’s CA, OR, WA, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans etc. etc. etc.
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ginnyfree said:
We’re supposed to have one in every diocese. Papal order. To some it is as binding as the list children make to Santa each year and about as probable to be fulfilled. Oh well. Glad I won’t be answering personally for that kind of rebellion. May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dave Smith said:
Agreed. Most bishops do not agree with such ‘supernatural’ rubbish. They should be ashamed but they are too modern for such medieval practices.
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Rob said:
Hey Ginny something here we agree on we have a common enemy. Ever heard that the enemy of my enemy is my friend – greetings friend and God Bless !
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Bosco the Great said:
He probably got caught with a female. Getting caught with a male is no big prob.
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Bosco the Great said:
Its pretty clear. No one goes up to heaven unless one came down from heaven. But, that is Jesus words. They are life. But the roman state run religion has no part of coming down from heaven. All one needs is what ever the state run religion gives you. The bible is a dead letter, to those involved in the state run religion.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, Jesus is clearly talking about himself, not anyone else. No one, except someone blind could interpret it any other way. Now, where is this example you are going to show me of some other spirit coming from God which is not the Holy Spirit. It is to you, the preacher of a fasle gospel that the Book of the Church founded by Christ is dead. I am amazed at the depth of your ignorance.
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Bosco the Great said:
So, if you didn’t come down from heaven, you aren’t going up there either. This is according to Jesus.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, that is not what Jesus says. He is referring to himself, not to us all. Where, in Scripture, does it say we all cane from heaven first? Your demon misleads you, you are of satan, not Christ – begone to your father who was a liar from the beginning.
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Bosco the Great said:
It doesn’t say we all came from heaven. It say we are all carnal. The new spirit comes down from heaven. Now that one can now go back up. Im sure you will religion that away.
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chalcedon451 said:
You have still not explained what this spirit is. If it is not the Holy Spirit, what is it?
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ginnyfree said:
Baloney, salami, pastrami. There is only ONE Paraclete Bosco. No. Scripture says itself that we have no new spirit, but the Third Person of the Blessed and Holy Trinity, the Holy Ghost or if you prefer, the Holy Spirit. “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” St. John’s Gospel, Chapter 14, verse 26.
You cannot change God. He is One and the Holy Spirit is that which the Father sent after His Son ascended into Heaven. You’ve goofed Bosco. There is no “new” spirit, but the same one that He promised would remain with us always until the end. god bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
“The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.”
That’s rite. But the state run religion say only it knows what scripture means. I choose to believe god. Really, no one has any private interpretation of scripture. Its for all to see, believe or reject, like the devilish state run religion does by calling the bible a dead letter.
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ginnyfree said:
Bosco, read that Scripture again s-l-o-w-l-y. It says Jesus will send His Holy Spirit upon the Church and He did and this is recorded for you in Acts. Here is God Promising it before He was Crucified: “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” John 14:16–18 And Here he is delivering on that Promise: “When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.” Acts 2:1–4
Now Bosco, get up to speed on your spit and vinegar. Did this not happen? All that occurred after this is recorded in your Bible which you refuse to believe. What you are saying is a denial that this ever happened.
Also the Church doesn’t say that it is the only one who understands Scripture. This is a Boscovite twist that is only half true. It has the Authority to officially interpret Scriptures, but it has not done so for most of the book. Everyone is free to love Scripture and to use it freely for edification and instruction, etc. What you aren’t fee to do is misinterpret it and claim you have the same authority as the Church to do so. Many have been lead in to sin unto death by this. You know that. You’re no fool Bosco. Why you persist in damning yourself I don’t know. Jesus died for YOU! He paid in His own Blood for YOU! Yet here you are, a grown man rejecting this and clinging to your false understanding. Give it up and be a man about it and face Him in the Confessional. He will listen to your sins and absolve them away and wash them off your soul in His own Blood. You will have His peace, the peace the world cannot give you Bosco. It is the only way. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Baptized in water didn’t make them filled with the holy ghost.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, they only received the Holy Ghost from the Apostles. They received no spirit from God without the Apostles. I think you just showed yourself up again Bosco. How does this – showing that they received the Holy Spirit from the Apostles, support the idea that you received another spirit, not the Holy Spirit, from God? Do at least try to make sense, even when writing nonsense.
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Bosco the Great said:
People get born again all over the world. The apostles are gone.
All I know is that I was blind and now I see.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, they are not. See Scripture, in Acts, where the Apostles choose a new Apostle after Judas dies. We see from the beginning that Apostles chose successors, and that tradition continues to this day. You cannot believe Jesus when he tells you he founded a church. You are blind, and you see only the delusions your demon creates in your head.
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Bosco the Great said:
So, the Mormons are rite. They have all 12 apostles.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, they, like you, make it up as they go along. Only those in the line of succession from the Apostles are their successors. You follow a religion you made up, or which was made up for you by a demon. You have failed utterly to show me one example of anyone receiveing a spirit from God other than the Holy Spirit, or receiving the HS outside God’s Church, until you do, you cannot even prove what you say from Scripture, so why should anyone believe such nonsense?
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Bosco the Great said:
I showd you an example. But you discount anything I say or any scripture I put up.
You keep wanting somehow to involve your state run religion into everything, when it wasn’t even conceived of as yet. Well, if you really want to know whats up, feel free to ask Jesus in prayer what and who He is. I cant do it. I too am a slave, not the owner.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, you didn’t. You showed us Phillip, one baptised by the Apostles, explain to a man interested what the word of God meant and then him being given water-baptism. This proves the precise opposite. But then you keep ignoring everything Jesus says and parroting nonsense you make up. You are like a dog returning to its vomit, a sow wallowing in the mire. Repent and seek the Lord whilst he is still to be found!
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Bosco the Great said:
Say, if what you think is true, who laid hands on the apostles and others in the upper room? The answer is no one. No one laid hands on them, other than the spirit. So, im dying to hear how you get around that one. Im sure youll invoke the roman state run religion somehow.
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chalcedon451 said:
Jesus had already commissioned them – do you understand anything? No, as you are preaching the gospel of the father of lies.
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Bosco the Great said:
Thay hadn’t received the spirit yet, until pentacost, and you know that. They were commishioned but the holy ghost hadn’t been given to man yet. If I can show you this in scripture, will you apologize and publically say you were wrong?
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chalcedon451 said:
The Holy Ghost came from the Father through the Son to those commissioned by the Son. but you have already told us it is not the Holy Spirit who came to you.
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ginnyfree said:
Yes, Bosco. You found it EUREKA! Another reference to the Sacrament of Confirmation! Silly clown. Now, how about sharing some fond memories of your own Confirmation. Surely when you were preparing they showed you this Scripture. If they didn’t, they should have cause it is one way to show Apostolic succession off too. Yeppers. Every Bishop does the same thing as Peter did that day when he gives the Sacrament of Confirmation to our lovely teenagers. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
confirmation. Torturing the little ones. See if they are good enough for god. How sick and inhumane. Well, that is the entire history of the state run religion….misery.
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chalcedon451 said:
Confirmation – making sure no child grows up with silly ideas about the Bible – a shame you were never confirmed.
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Bosco the Great said:
Here is an example of an individual getting saved….. just he and Phillip. No church, of which I assume you refer to the Roman state run religion, which didn’t show up til around 360 AD
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
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chalcedon451 said:
Can you not read, or are you stupid? Here we have someone interested in what Philip – a member of the Church and a future saint, is saying about Jesus. The Ethiopian does not pretned, as you do, to have a spirit and understand, he asks the saint to explain these things, which Phillip does and water baptises him. This supports my case and knocks another nail in your coffin. It is amazing one person can misread so much. But, if you do have, as I believe, a demon in you, not so surprising. Ask what your fruits are Bosco, and then what spirit produces them. Repent and find the Holy Spirit.
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Bosco the Great said:
Future Saint. That’s funny. The new test says all the saved are saints. You roman state run religion claims only it makes saints. Who you gonna believe? A state run religion that burned people to death for believing the bible or are you going to believe the bible?
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chalcedon451 said:
You clearly do not know who St Phillip was. St Polycarp, a disciple of St John, told us much about him, and the Church founded by Jesus canonised him. Phillip receive the Spirit from the Church. You cannot show me a single example in scripture of anyone receiving this spirit you speak of, which is not the Holy Spirit. Scripture shows you are a liar or deluded by a demon – which is it?
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Bosco the Great said:
Phillip receive the Spirit from the Church.
That’s funny….I always thought the Spirit gave the Spirit.
May I ask you to clarify what you mean by the Church when referring to Phillip? The church is the body of the born again.
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chalcedon451 said:
The Spirit comes through the Church founded by Christ, as He always has.
The Church was founded by Jesus, we see it at work in Acts, and in the Epistles we see warnings against false teacher and injunctions to stay with the Church. We see it in the writings tof St Ignatius, the disciple of St John, and in St Polycarp, and in the works of their successors.
But, as you know no history, you believe the lie of the devil that this church was founded by Constantine. How sad you are.
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Bosco the Great said:
The first apostles were jews. They kept their jewish ID and went to synagogue on Saturday. Say, did the apostles separate themselves with fish hats and costumes?
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, they wore what the Jewish priests wore – as you’d know if you knew a word of history. Do you suppose they used the NT in Paul’s day?
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Bosco the Great said:
Thank you for going public with your mistaken beliefs. When I get some time im gonna demonstrate how that is patently false. Im tired and hot and will do it later. maybe some cathol in here will beat me to it, if they feel like correcting one of their own, something ive never seen done.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, you are so poorly educated that I look forward to more nonsense from you.
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Dave Smith said:
HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?
Ephesians 2:5-8, 2 Timothy 1:9, – I have been saved Phillipians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:9 – I am being saved
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Titus 3:5-7, Phillipians 3:11- 14 – I hope to be saved
1 Corinthians 9:25-27, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26 – Salvation can be lost
2 John 8, Hebrews 6:4-8 – Salvation can be lost
1 Corinthians 4:2-5 – Paul does not even claim to be saved
THE CHURCH
Matthew 16:18 – Jesus established and protects His Church Matthew 28:20 – He promises to be with His Church always John 16:12 – The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth 1 Timothy 3:15 – The Church (not the Bible) is the pillar and foundation of truth
Matthew 18:17-18 – If someone refuses to listen to the Church cast him out
Matthew 28:18-20 – The Churches authority is Jesus’ authority
1 John 4:6 – Anyone who knows God listens to the Church Luke 10:16 – He who rejects the Church rejects Christ Matthew 16:19 – The Church has power to legislate
Acts 15:28 – Decisions of the Church are decisions of the Holy Spirit
Acts 15:6-29 – Apostles and elders settle disputes authoritatively through councils
Acts 16:4 – People are to observe the decisions of the Apostles and elders
Acts 1:25 – The Apostles choose successors (bishops)
Titus 1:5 – Bishops appoint presbyters (priests)
1 Peter 5:5 – Be subject to the elders
Hebrews 13:17 – Obey your leaders and submit to them
1 Corinthians 1:10 – There must be no divisions among you Ephesians 4:4-5 – There is one body, one Lord, one faith and one baptism
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chalcedon451 said:
But Bosco doesn’t understand Scripture – his demon quotes a few lines and he parrots them. He keeps telling us to read Scripture, and when we quote it to him, he ignores the word of God.
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Dave Smith said:
Well that is a problem alright: seems we could have a war on the verses of Scripture for he has no way of reconciling them as a whole and yet the Church has done so for 2000 years.
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chalcedon451 said:
We know who the author of chaos is, we know what his fruits are – and we know Bosco – QED.
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed it was and will continue to be demonstrated, sadly.
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ginnyfree said:
You shouldn’t have gone there Bosco. Nope. You’ve helped too much. The eunuch need the Church represented by Philip to interpret the Scriptures for him. He had the scrolls there in his lap, yet admitted he didn’t understand them. Oh, if you could only have a tenth of that kind of humility Bosco! you’d be a very lucky man. Philip was and Apostle and he had the the Authority given him by Christ to preach and teach and interpret accurately for any and all who were fortunate enough to have him as a guest as was that poor slave from Ethiopia on that day. Pay careful attention to this verse: “Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.” verse 35 of Acts 8. It was Philip’s other words not just those on the page Bosco that brought about the conversion of the eunuch. Oral Tradition Bosco! The eunuch’s own words in the preceding verse show that the book ALONE didn’t do the trick, but the interpreter’s words did. Scripture aided by an ORAL TRADITION spoken by the mouth of and Apostle, whose very title means “one who has been sent.” And this little example explains that concept very well as well. You’ve undone yourself with this one Bosco. Read it again s-l-o-w-l-y. See if the same Spirit may move you to a better understanding of ORAL TRADITION, Apostolic charisms and actions as well as Authoritative interpretation of Scriptures. I should be thanking you Mr. Clowny Man for bringing this up into the discussion. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
You are not seriously trying to convince me Phillip was a member of the Roman state run religion, are you?
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ginnyfree said:
Too far afield, even for you Bosco. Who do you think believes that there was more than one Church in the first 100 years? Raise you hands please…………I hear crickets chirping Bosco, but I see no hands raised. If the nuts who proclaim a “great apostasy” don’t go that far. Philip is an Apostle and was present among the original Apostles who Jesus called to follow Him. It was Philip who introduces Nathanael to Jesus and it is he who Jesus asked for bread at the feeding of the 5,000. So Bosco, how is it he isn’t a member of the Body of Christ, the Church? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
Church singular 1 Cor. 1:2; churches plural Galatians 1:2. What is it that makes the difference in these two locations?
I think you are probably mistaken about the Philip in Acts 8 being the apostle Philip rather it was Philip the evangelist whose daughters were prophets and I think it was either Ignatius or Polycarp that also made this point. Hence the necessity of the Apostles visit to Samaria following on from Philip’s ministry there. Check it out and see if we can agree on something. 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, this error is a common one – Eusebius himself makes it. It is recorded in the fragments of Papias, who had it from, I think, Polycarp.
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Rob said:
Yes that seems to jog my memory as correct.
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ginnyfree said:
Chalcedon reeeeeeealllly knows the Fathers. I’m am sometimes awed by this. It is amazes me. He uses what he knows of them well too and that makes all the difference in the world. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank you ginny – they are a great guide and comfort – and I must say, I like the sound of your new reading 🙂
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ginnyfree said:
Yeah well. I’ll learn something and be even more of an intolerable boar than I am now. There will be even less “likes” for me in life then there are now. Should I weep? Think I will? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
Nah, take it all on the chin! They can’t get to you that easily 🙂
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Bosco the Great said:
Chalcedon knows the Fathers.
Call no man on this earth father.
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chalcedon451 said:
I know what Jesus meant by that, but then as I am part of his church, I would; when you really become saved by him, you too will become, if not wiser, a little better informed. No charge for this educational service.
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ginnyfree said:
When are you going to Confession Bosco?
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Bosco the Great said:
You mean to a pedophile in a box? Most likely never.
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Bosco the Great said:
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1;26 – 26.
Acts 1:25 – The Apostles choose successors (bishops)….No they chose one man. It was a custom started by Jesus to send them out by 2s. So they needed another to make an even 12. They were not bishops. They were fellow servants.
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chalcedon451 said:
Where does it say they said that the custom of choosing a successor died out? We know from those writing at the end of the century, around AD 90, that the Apostles continued to choose successors, and their successors chose others. How sad that you are so ignorant and cannot believe what Jesus said about his church enduring to the end of time. Why do you not believe Jesus? And where is this other spirit you speak of in the Bible? You’ve gone very quiet about that – as you do when you are busted.
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Bosco the Great said:
Where does it say that successors kept being chosen? Why doesn’t Jesus mention this? You only have extra biblical writings to justify roman state religion teaching.
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chalcedon451 said:
It says so in the writings of Ignatius, the disciple of John, and in all the other early sources. This is the problem with being as ignorant as a pig, Bosco, you end up doubting Jesus. You only have extra-biblical writings to tell you what books are in the Bible. Do at least try to make sense.
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Bosco the Great said:
Ignatious? hes not gospel. John was banished to Patmos. Where was this ignatus?John didn’t mention this guy. The writings of men are for the carnal man. Scripture is inspired by the spirit.You can see the exponential growth of fables sprouting from the Roman state run religion.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, neither is the death of Paul or Peter – what’s your point? DO you think they are still alive?
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Bosco the Great said:
Where was Peter ever in Rome in the bible? Its not there, yet you believe it. Seems like you guys believe everything that isn’t in the bible and don’t believe one gat danged word of the bible. So go back to your temples and gather round those on their knees befor the works of mens hands.
Bible believers…my eye.
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chalcedon451 said:
And where, in the Bible does it say what the Bible is? We only know the Bible is what it is from extra Biblical sources – the sam e sources from which we know about what happened to Peter, Paul and Phillip. Of course, the Bosco cult knows nothing of any of this.
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ginnyfree said:
Yo Bosco, just so you can’t say your eyes haven’t seen it – http://www.culturaltravelguide.com/real-tomb-saint-peter-under-saint-peters-basilica
It is awesome! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco is a man who, despite having to use extra-biblical sources even to identify the Bible, insists if it is not in the Bible he won’t believe it. He’s a walking contradication of himself.
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ginnyfree said:
Gee, take it literally and anything any Democrat says must be a lie ’cause it’s not in the Bible! Did I go there? Yes I did! Don’t tell Donald Trump! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
Do you see how wrong your argument is? Where does Jesus mention the names of the books in the Bible? Where does the Bible. You rely on extra-biblical sources for that, as we do for what happened next. Our Church is founded by Jesus, you are occuplied by a demon – get saved Bosco.
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Bosco the Great said:
Good advice.
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ginnyfree said:
The Holy Father agrees with you in part Bosco, because one of the titles he chooses for himself is Servant of the Servants of God. There ya go. Next……….God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
It also shows Apostolic succession and the fact that a man cannot make himself an Apostle or claim any Apostolic Authority for himself. He needs to be called and chosen. Biblical proofs again of our correctness Bosco. Good job. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. I DID remember you at the Altar again today when I received Communion. I keep reminding God that you’re still a mess.
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Bosco the Great said:
I thank you for that. I can seriously use the prayer
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, can we get this clear – are you claiming the Holy Spirit came on you, or, as it seems, that some other spirit did? This matters, because there is no other spirit comes from God save the Holy Spirit. If you have been occupied by another spirit, seek urgent help.
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Dave Smith said:
Perhaps he should take stock of the sound advice of St. Ignatius on the discernment of spirits. For he does advise great caution be taken before acting on what we think we are perceiving or asked to do:
Eighth Rule. The eighth: When the consolation is without cause, although there be no deceit in it, as being of God our Lord alone, as was said; still the spiritual person to whom God gives such consolation, ought, with much vigilance and attention, to look at and distinguish the time itself of such actual consolation from the following, in which the soul remains warm and favored with the favor and remnants of the consolation past; for often in this second time, through one’s own course of habits and the consequences of the concepts and judgments, or through the good spirit or through the bad, he forms various resolutions and opinions which are not given immediately by God our Lord, and therefore they have need to be very well examined before entire credit is given them, or they are put into effect.
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Bosco the Great said:
Ignatius wasn’t born again. I can tell in his writings. You guys love him and think hes great. that’s cause hes one of you.
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chalcedon451 said:
You know nothing. This was a man taught by John. You are a man misled by an evil spirit, who leads you astray. You have zero idea of who is of God. I would say your evil spirit will reject all true saints and lead you where he knows you will be his master’s.
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Dave Smith said:
I can only hope I am like him . . . as he is revered and holy saint in heaven. For those who denigrate God’s Holy Friends there is only prayers that He will have Mercy on you: enemies of our saints are enemies of God. That doesn’t place you in very good company, now, does it?
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Bosco the Great said:
I doubt if this Ignacius ever met John. Ignacius wasn’t born again.
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chalcedon451 said:
Since you are not, how would you know?
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chalcedon451 said:
Apart from anything, you can’t even spell his name.
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ginnyfree said:
Bosco, why do you even dare to judge the holy men who did so many great things for God and His Church? Who gave you this unique ability to judge who is reborn and who isn’t? Do you have some sort of supernatural gift that allows you to see the state of men’s souls in the afterlife? And you have a faulty understanding of what it means to be reborn to boot! All who have seen the waters of Baptism are the reborn. And just so you know, we are those who Revelation says the second death will do no harm to for we have died with Christ in the waters of Baptism and have been resurrected to a new life thru Him as we come up out of those same waters! So I have no fear of our second death in the body! Rev. 2:11 – “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor shall not be harmed by the second death.” And yet again in Rev. 20:6 – “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these;” Get it? I do. You should. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
“I am the wheat of God and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ. … Ignatius bishop from Antioch in Asia Minor.
Not a saint but a great saint and martyr!
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chalcedon451 said:
Which is why I find it odd that Bosco thinks him ‘not born again’. MInd you, I am assuming Bosco knows who St Ignatius is, even if he can’t spell the name, and that may be unwise. He may be thinking if Ignatius Loyola!
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Rob said:
Could be more likely I think to be mining anti Catholic material from Loyola than the other.
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chalcedon451 said:
That is my suspicion. No doubt when he returns, we shall find out!
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ginnyfree said:
Ahem, is that your way of saying a mule we all know and love has a mouthful? Nice one Rob and I didn’t think you had it in you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Ignatius was not born again. I can see it in his writings. too bad if you people who bow befor the works of your own hands don’t agree with me. Maybe your graven images will save you. they are as dumb as you. They have eyes, but they see not. they have feet, but they walk not. they must be bourne on the shoulders of men. They are as dumb as those that made them.
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chalcedon451 said:
Which ignatius do you have in mind here? Bosco. The one I have died for Jesus. I doubt you have the guts to follow his example, and yet you mock him, a man who had enough faith to die for the Lord. When you have that faith, you may comment, until then, perhaps you might lik to hang your head in shame?
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Bosco the Great said:
Oh the pain, the pain, when I read my unfortunate posts from when I was a hell bound heretic. I need to do a million hail Mary for the madness I put you good people thru. Oh Mary, can you ever forgive me?
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ginnyfree said:
Back to Bosco needing an exorcism. Ya know demons tend to hide themselves till forced out and about. So if ya want it Bosco, we can arrange it. Do you really feel that another spirit came upon you than the third person of the Blessed Trinity Bosco? There is help available. Im just sayin’ ya know. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
I will ask my local Priest about an emergency exorcism.
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Bosco the Great said:
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10;26
The born again know Christ and its difficult to un know him. Christ doesn’t save someone just to toss them in the fire.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, you admit you can lose your salvation – which is what this says and you deny?
On the question of the Spirit, can we clear this up? Are you claiming some spirit from God which is not the Holy Spirit came to you? There is no other Spirit, and if you have one, it is not from God but the father of lies – which would explain why you can’t read the Bible straight.
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Bosco the Great said:
The devil doesn’t have to power to transform lives for the better. All I know is I was changed and then I was led to other who this happened to. We all knew the same Jesus. Our notes matched.
Youre treading thin ice by calling that spirit a demon.
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chalcedon451 said:
Oh, but you are wrong, the devil changes people and makes them think they are dollowing Jesus – and he deludes many, even the very elect – read your Bible, it is all there.
What is this spirit then Bosco? Are you claiming it is the Holy Spirit? What other spirit comes from God. I call your spirit a liar if it is not the HolY Spirit, and I do so in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, and I recommend you see an exorcist.
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Bosco the Great said:
Yeah, I do need my head examined.
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chalcedon451 said:
You do. You say no extra-biblical sources, then cannot show me in the Bible where it defines the Bible.
I am off to dinner – try to get saved in the meantime
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Dave Smith said:
A classic example or arrogance by overestimate one’s own ability to discern the Truth and yet underestimate the power of the Evil One. All of this done without recourse to other Christians both past and present.
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Bosco the Great said:
You guys keep asking where is says whats in the bible. God gave me a book of his words. You didn’t give it to me, the state run religion didn’t give it to me, god gave it to me. Go ahead and give credit to man for the word of god, that’s par for the state run religion of men.
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chalcedon451 said:
God did not hand it to you personally. He founded a Church, that Church gave us the book. You reject the church and misunderstand the book.
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chalcedon451 said:
Now, answer the question – this spirit you have, is it the Holy Spirit? Why will you not answer? Are you frightened? You should be.
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ginnyfree said:
Yo Bosco. Have yo unot heard? It was the “state run religion” that decided what books belong in your Bible to begin with. Now please thank us profusely. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
I don’t fully understand, but I got a new spirit, my own new spirit. Im not the holy ghost. Im Bosco, and I have my own spirit. Why don’t you look into getting one for yourself?
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chalcedon451 said:
Because nowhere in Scripture are we told we will get some new Spirit who is not the Holy Spirit. If you want some ghastly spirit from the netherworld, fine, but leave me out of it.
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ginnyfree said:
ANYTHING that leads AWAY from the Church Jesus Christ founded cannot be called HOLY, Bosco. Do not fault the man. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Nothing outside of that homosexual pedophile snake pit is holy eh? You made my day. That was truly funny. Thanks.
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ginnyfree said:
Verse 25, Bosco. Ever hear of an Apostolic Exortation Bosco? I’m sure you have. Continuity. Doncha just love it? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
The chair of Peter has been bought and sold and left vacant and been killed for and given as a gift.
Apostolic succession.
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ginnyfree said:
And ya know what Bosco? There will be absolutely no one fighting for the chair you sit in today after you are gone. They will place it at the curb where a wandering mongrel might relieve himself as he looks for a good bone to gnaw. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
And another thing about the above, “26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” Now Bosco, that is Scripture warning YOU IN PARTICULAR that once a MORTAL SIN has been committed, you need special help in the Confessional because the venial sins forgiven in the penitential rites within the Mass will no longer suffice. Boo hiss Bosco. You’re undoing your protestant positions with too many Scriptures. I feel a bit like Philip to the Eunuch this evening. But dinner is smelling too sweet and I must stop. Oh dear. Roast Pork Loin with mashed potatoes from scratch and nice pan gravy with the Ginnyfree twist – I toast a few chopped onions in bacon drippings to boost up the stuff in the pan and my hubby loved it. Shhhhhh…….it’s a secret recipe. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
Ooops almost forgot. We DO hold fast to our Profession Bosco. It is found in the Creed Silly Clown. Look it up. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I am not sure it is reasonable to expect to have a discussion on exegesis with a clown; I fully expect him to throw a bucket full of confetti in every post and then trip over his own shoes.
Oh, wait …
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chalcedon451 said:
Quite – odd though it is, I am fond of him, and wish him in a better place – foolish of me, I know!
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cathy said:
No doubt if our friend could find a better place for his clowning, he would be there, which is a very great compliment to this site. 🙂
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ginnyfree said:
He doesn’t fool around with confetti Cathy. It is usually something a little browner and smellier. OOOOPs. Pardon me! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I prefer my simile, tbh, but each to her own.
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ginnyfree said:
Chalcedon, your opening statement isn’t exactly 100%. Not all things necessary for salvation are in the Bible. Although the Bible is a good starting place, it is only the beginning. It’s own words are this: “But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name,” the Gospel of St. John, Chapter 20, verse 31. Belief is necessary for salvation, yet it is only one factor. The Person who is doing the work of salvation is none other than Jesus Christ and He is real and alive and God. He is also not entirely contained in a book. That would limit the saved to only those who can read and comprehend a book. Yes, it is a Holy Book but it is not capable of completely the work of salvation. It only starts it or enriches it. We are not a religion of the book alone. Life in His name is lived, one day at a time, from the moment of acceptance of Jesus Christ till death and beyond in the eternal life He gives. It is lived in His Name, that is as a Christian. Becoming familiar with the Scriptures is good and necessary, but it is only a part of being a Christian. In theory, you could read the book, agree with its contents yet never do any of the things it tells you to. Saved? Not exactly. Salvation is a process whose completion isn’t fully realized until the last day. It is mostly realized at one’s particular judgement, but that is in anticipation of the final judgement of all things. Until then the work of Salvation of mankind is on-going and so cannot be contained in any book. This is mentioned again by St. John when he says “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” and this is so because He is still at work until the end. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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chalcedon451 said:
If you notice, you will see we agree. The first quotation you provide says what I say – which us that the Good News in the Bible leads you to salvation. But I immediately say that by itself it is not enough.
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ginnyfree said:
I know C, but I couldn’t resist. Thanks be to God for you and this thread. Lots of opportunities to speak the truth. God bless. Ginnyfree. I gotta go mash the potatoes now. UGH.
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cathy said:
I am afraid speaking the truth is not sufficient. According to the blessed Paul it has to be the truth spoken in love, or else our words are just noise.
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ginnyfree said:
Cathy, so you know Chalcedon and Servus are usually the kindest to dear ole Bosco the Clown. I on the other hand tend towards finger wagging and admonishments. I do however remember his poor soul to God when I go to Mass and receive Communion. Since you aren’t Catholic, I know you cannot understand this next, but there really isn’t a more loving thing I could do then to speak directly to God while He resides in me in the Blessed Sacrament at Communion on behalf of poor ole Bosco. There is no closer union with God possible for us poor sinners this side of death. He is in me in His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity and at that time every beat of my heart and thought in my mind is Known at a level not possible for us mere mortals to understand. I couldn’t give Bosco a better gift than to beg for his poor soul then if I hog tied him and dragged him to the Confessional myself and left him there locked in the Church till his little red nosey falls off! Keep hangin’ around and you’ll get it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I am Catholic, but not Roman Catholic, and I don’t need you to tell me what I can or cannot understand.
I really don’t like your style of posting, Ginny. I consider people who may simply be passing by and reading how Bosco is addressed by ‘Catholics’; I don’t think they would be impressed.
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ginnyfree said:
Gee Cathy, when you said you don’t believe there are any demons because of Occam’s razor I assumed you meant there are no demons and that is not Catholic teaching so I assumed you aren’t a Catholic. Thanks for letting me know you are a Catholic. So am I. Glad to meet you. Sorry you find me hard to take, but I really feel no compelling need to people please. It is a bad behavior I grew old enough to abandon. More people should be able to just be themselves and not worry about being politically correct or people pleasing. I never took a course in ear tickling and don’t want to start now. I’m sorry you feel nasty towards me. That is unfortunate. As for Bosco being of the devil. you’d have to go back and read all of his stuff here. I recommend you try this out for size: https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/child-sacrifices-tied-to-vatican-mafia-canadian-pm-stephen-harper/
When I was new here, SF and C both told me to watch out for Mr Clowny Face because he was nasty at times and could be hurtful. They said he came from the devil to perplex them. I doubted like you but never used Occam’s Razor to shave him. Oh well. I hope you feel better. Thank you for sharing your opinions of me and my typing. It is always good to get criticism. But just don’t expect that I act on it in the way you’d expect. Expectations are premeditated resentments and I really don’t desire to be a constant source for you. It seems easy to do. Perhaps it would help you to expect less of me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I did not say there are no demons.
Kindly read what I actually say and not what you assume is there.
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ginnyfree said:
Cathy, I can’t help but notice that someone else made the exact same assumption I did about your original Occam’s Razor remark, yet you are not taking any offense at what they said and aren’t yapping back at them about how offended you are! Why is that? No need to explain. I already have an idea. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
You actually said “Using Occam’s razor I suspect the inadequacy is in our ability to express the ineffable. No demons around, therefore.” You’ve concluded by your own observations that there are no demons! No demons means no demons. You wouldn’t be the first Catholic I’ve met who no longer believes that demons exist or can influence human behaviors and that odd or bad behaviors can only be attributed to mental or physical defect or illness, i.e. epilepsy being mistaken for demonic possession, etc. You won’t be the last either. It is understandable, just not acceptable to me. I also find it odd that you used the word “ineffable” in your defense of Bosco. I give you a simple definition of the word, and an example of its proper use: “formal : too great, powerful, beautiful, etc., to be described or expressed
She felt ineffable [=inexpressible] joy at the sight of her children.
His paintings have an ineffable [=indescribable] beauty.” It is usually used to describe things that are positive and worthy of praise, not things in the negative such as demons and evil such as we were discussing. I found that a bit odd. Hope that helps. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I am not getting drawn into defending windmills.
I will only say again, speaking the truth without love is not sufficient.
Personally I think that anyone who is not actually a priest saying ‘God bless’ at the end of very ascerbic posts is doing a huge disservice to our faith. But each to his or her own.
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chalcedon451 said:
I think Paul gets this right in 1 Cor 13 🙂
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cathy said:
Indeed so. The words of the Blessed Paul are always safe for us to follow. 🙂
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ginnyfree said:
P.S. Also comes to mind the question I put to Bosco, “What came first, our salvation or the Bible?” to which he had to admit our salvation came first. That means that God can do His works without a book.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed, which is why I said that by itself it is not enough 😄
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ginnyfree said:
Amazing. Title is the Tradition and the Church and Bosco the Great and Silly Clown brings up the Ethiopian Eunuch and the passage that proves an Oral Tradition carried on the lips of an Apostle, Philip is what converts the man and not simply a reading of the Scripture passage. He’s step in it didn’t he? Oooooops. We find BOTH Tradition and the Church represented in this story from Acts. Silly Clown is undermining his own tradition by quoting Scriptures that support Catholic stuff. Gee, what’ll he think of next? God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. The roast pork was perfect. I’m grand. Not only do I know my Scriptures and can defend my Church, but I can also make awesome gravy. The potatoes would simply be spuds without it. On Thursdays I’m actually humble for those who are wondering.
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Rob said:
A RESPONSE TO SERVUS’ QUESTION “HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?”
Briefly I would say “Yes I have” you may wish to consider the evangelical position below.
Ephesians 2:1-8 speaks of PRESENT TENSE SALVATION as a possession of believers by contrasting the former state of the unbeliever with the PRESENT state of the believer. The comparison pairings of former unbeliever to present believer are as follows:
2:1 “dead in trespasses and sins” BUT NOW BELIEVERS ARE 2:5 “alive together with Christ”
2:2 (sins) in which you formerly walked” BUT NOW BELIEVERS ARE 2:10 “created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them”
2:2 “(motivated) according to the Prince of the power of the air … BUT NOW BELIEVERS ARE 1:13 “sealed with the Holy Spirit a pledge of their redemption” and 2:6 “raised and seated with Christ in heavenly places 1:21 far above all (enemy) rule and authority etc.”
2:2 “the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience” BUT NOW BELIEVERS ARE 2:10 “His workmanship created in Christ Jesus”
2:3 “by nature children of wrath” BUT NOW BELIEVERS HAVE 2:5 & 2:8 “been saved”.
The contrasts and the exalted PRESENT state attributed to a true believer as being “IN CHRIST” are extremely astounding, marvellous and all attributed to Christ’s grace and can rightly appreciated give no rise to a believers pride or complacency but rather to wonder awe, humble thankfulness and appreciative labour for Christ and His kingdom!
The believer by reason of “new birth” effected by the Holy Spirit Jn. 3 is in fact already IN CHRIST “a new creature 2 Cor. 5:17, incorporated into a new humanity under a new federal head the Lord Jesus, The Christ, God the Son, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So what of any claim to have been saved and to have received a new spirit from Christ?
It seems believers have actually already in principle received a new everything from Him!
Bosco of course should more accurately state (if he is in Christ which I have no reason to doubt) that he has received a “renewed spirit” or better still “a reborn spirit” Titus 3:5-7 for as Christ also told us “that which is born of Spirit is spirit Jn. 3:6 and that it is the spirit that profits from new birth the flesh profits nothing Jn. 6:63.
Acts 16:30-31; 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7, seem to support the position of – “I have been saved” i.e. salvation as the present possession of the believer; while 1 Jn. 5:9-13 affirms that the testimony of the Holy Spirit and the word of God to the believer is so that they might know 5:13 that they HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So to make the claim to be saved need not be considered a prideful or idle boast. It was in order to impart such assurance that John wrote these words.
SF cited and commented on Philippians 2:12 and 1 Peter 1:9 saying “I am being saved”. No argument here from me, salvation is spoken of in scripture as it applies to individuals in past, present and future tenses.
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Calvin’s concept of the ‘perseverance of the saints’ could cover this one; i.e. that those who truly have become new creatures in Christ will endure through the deposit of grace they have received.
Philippians 3:11-14 I hope to be saved?????
The above statement/interpretation by SF of Philippians 3:11-14 is more than extremely dubious. The passage is not speaking of salvation but of resurrection from the dead. I grant that resurrection to eternal life is the culmination of a believer’s salvation.
However if Paul were speaking here of resurrection in this sense he would hardly have referred to it as a prise won for faithful service or for attaining perfection. For Paul to have been making such a claim would have negated all that he repeatedly claims elsewhere that salvation is a gift of God’s grace and not a wage earned or a prise to be won or attained to by proximity to a state of perfection.
Again what is Paul on about “that I might attain to the resurrection of the dead” the statement is meaningless as it is, because all the dead good and evil are to be raised, there is nothing in that sense to be attained to.
I am told by some that now the Greek that Paul’s phrase here is more literally translated as “That I might attain to the out resurrection from the dead”. They take Paul’s meaning to be “That I might attain to the resurrection from out amongst the dead”. There are to be, as we learn elsewhere two resurrections of the dead the first resurrection prior to the millennium reign of Christ and the second resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium reign of Christ.
In Philippians 3:10 Paul refers to His desire for fellowship of Christ suffering and conformity to Christ death as necessary to the attainment of the resurrection he is speaking of. In short Paul desires to attain to complete conformity to the will of God to the point of martyrdom if necessary to lay hold of the completion of the apostolic call for which Christ laid hold of him.
Further Paul tells us that those who suffer with Christ will reign with Him and it seems to reign with Christ following the first resurrection and through Christ millennial kingdom is the attainment that Paul has in view.
In Revelation 2:26-27 we learn that the overcomers will rule the nations with Christ this surly may be what Paul is speaking of in Philippians 3 rather than the obtaining of salvation as a prise. Paul was running his course to be all that Christ wanted of him and to obtain of his part in the first resurrection and the administration of Christ’s millennial kingdom.
Christ has much to say in gospels of rewards and losses in relation to His disciples and a simplification of all texts to refer to saved or not saved is unwarranted.
The question of whether a saved person can lose their salvation is one that evangelicals are not in agreement upon and I guess the majority would NOT be in the once saved always saved camp. While many of the once saved always saved persuasion are aware that there remains a great deal to be lost in terms of the rewards for faithfulness that Christ spoke much of.
Further I would doubt greatly that there are many who have fallen away from Christ that feel very sure of salvation whatever the theological stance. So perhaps the question on this point is more theoretical than practical while the parable of the sower and the various produce (or not) from the seed indicates that not all who seem to show allegiance to Christ turn out to be (to mix out metaphors) good trees evidenced by their good fruit.
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Bosco the Great said:
Thanks, I think
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ginnyfree said:
Rob, your decidedly Protestant interpretation and understanding of the Scriptures shows. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I however am a Catholic and I have a different understanding. Salvation to me isn’t a once and done thing, but rather an on-going effort that involves both me and God. He died for me, but He needs me to do a few things for Him so that my soul my fully realize His salvific work. The completion of this work will not be realized by me until I am in Heaven, both body and soul. As a Catholic my hope is that after death, I will be judged worthy of Heaven yet still attached to sin, so my soul will undergo a purgation of these attachments as thru fire. Once my soul has been cleansed and purified, it will enter into Heaven. Then as God wills, the second judgement will occur and as part of it, the bodies of the dead will rise and at this general resurrection, my body will be united to my soul and the fullness of God’s redemption of me personally will be realized. Obviously this all takes time and so seeing it this way, you hopefully will understand how salvation is a process. Yes, it is true that at my Baptism as an adult, I was saved as Peter says in the Scriptures. However, that was only the beginning of my life as a Christian. My state of being ready for Heaven as I was coming up out of the waters of Baptism ended with my first sin. Guess Rob? I am still a sinner and I know it. I’ve grown in the spiritual life and changed and made some of the amends I needed to for the things I did before I found Christ, and I’ve also made penitential prayer a regular part of my life, so I have hope that endures unto the end. The Mercy of God has been great in my life, but I can still sin. I do. I don’t do so intentionally, but it happens. The grace of preservation from sin a few of the Saints have experienced is not mine. I don’t fool myself about that. Just not being a bank robber or a wife beater isn’t enough. Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Tall order that. I really don’t claim to be up to it. I pray the Lord has mercy on my poor soul and strengthens me to this task. When I speak with those who claim to be saved, I get really turned off by the simply fact that they all seem comfortable sinning in all kinds of ways and many don’t even believe in sin at all, because they are so confident in the love of Christ, that they have no fear of the Lord left. Since true wisdom is found in fear of the Lord, how can any of that be wise? Well, I’m not fooled. I am a sinner. I need God’s mercy everyday and to reject it by saying I’m a saved person who no longer needs it because He somehow paid for all my sins, past, present and future to the point that I no longer need to bother about them one little bit is a total repudiation of all that is found in the Way. I still see no value in it other than the ability to get out from under a load of guilt that is too much to bear. Rather than address the real changes that need to be made in one’s life to measure up to the standards of a Christian way of life, they simply give up and get saved! No more worries about sin at all, so no more guilt. The result is as Scripture says: a deadened conscience. Yeah. That really scares me. A person with no conscience is capable of anything. I refer you to any text on Abnormal Psychology to see how well that actually works for folks. Or you could use the Planned Parenthood baby body parts sales as an example. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
Thanks for your reply Ginny I was fully aware of the Catholic perspective.
Also I think you may have missed a short excerpt in my post i.e. that salvation for the believer has past, ongoing present and future aspects and No evangelical with any sense whatsoever would disagree with anything you have said in that respect; the issue of purgatory being an exception. The point of my post was to emphasise the initial aspect of salvation / new birth which if genuine will go on to produce the ongoing work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life.
As Jesus said we now a tree by its fruit, no fruit or bad fruit indicates a ‘fake Christian’. It is also instructive to me that it is by the fruit the person is known as a true Christian more that by their particular theological explanations of their life in Christ. Which is precisely why I can recognise the grace of God in fellow Christians with whom I may disagree with on many points.
Maybe you can answer a couple of question for me. Is it possible for a Catholic to be aware at any point in time that they are in a state of grace? If so would this give them an assurance of heaven if they were to die at that time? If the answer to these questions is yes, then I fail to see how this differs from an assurance of being saved, it would amount to the same reality just different language.
Most evangelicals take the passage in Corinthian about being ‘saved as by fire’ to refer to the comparative absence or valueless of their works for Christ and the subsequent loss of rewards in the age to come. Though I do know a few evangelicals that have no problems with concept of purgatory.
Your description of evangelicals does not bear resemblance with many I have ever known in churches of which I have been a part of or assisted to lead. Such individuals with no care about sin would be counselled, warned and subject to dis-fellowship from any church in which I was part of the leadership, if there was no genuine repentance.
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ginnyfree said:
Hello Rob. Thank you for the clarification of your particular position. It helps.
as for your questions: “Maybe you can answer a couple of question for me. Is it possible for a Catholic to be aware at any point in time that they are in a state of grace?” Yes, as soon as I step out of the Confessional and sometimes I’m totally awed by this simple fact as I sit in the pew looking back at how far I’ve come since when I first believed. This state of grace is God’s gift to me. He died to give it to me. I was a mortal sinner in my life, many times over. I deserved Hell. He saved me. I live in peace with Him. He purchased me and the price was His Blood. It is too much to get one’s mind around and brings me to tears still. Yet there have also been times when I am ashamed to admit I took it for granted. May the Lord have mercy on my poor soul.
Question two:”If so would this give them an assurance of heaven if they were to die at that time?” Yes, but like I said, I’ve got some Purgatory comin’ my way. I’m not perfect. I’m a sinner. I don’t mean to be, yet that is what I am. I fail every day and every day I ask God to have mercy on my soul. I will eventually get to Heaven, not that God owes it to me because I’ve ticked all the right boxes on the pop quiz of Catholicism and paid my tithes and loved as much as I could. It is a simple fact that He gave me eternal life in His Name and clothed me in a robe of Salvation when I received my Baptismal garment. It keep it washed in His Blood by frequenting the Sacrament of Confession. I go nearly every Saturday and have for quite a few years for a few reasons one of which is this: God’s love for me and for souls gave His only begotten Son to die to give me that specific Sacrament. It is in that little dark box thru the words of absolution that all that God willed to do for souls is realized and activated by the confession of one’s sins and the words of the Priest bringing to the poor sinner His Blood. The peace one feels in one’s soul afterwards gets in one’s very bones. You feel a feeling that is sometimes hard to describe but it is God separating the sins from the soul who committed them and came to Him directly for their healing. No, the righteous have not need of the Physician of Souls, but us poor sinners do. Blessed are they who know their need. I recommend you read the Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska: Divine Mercy in My Soul – http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=diary+divine+mercy+in+my+soul&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=21252705565&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=699291294954120223&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_n6az3d9f_b
http://www.divinemercy.com/
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
I would say that true Christians sin and if any man says he has no sin he makes God a liar but I would not refer to such Christians as sinners.
Yes we sin but that is our weakness and failure but not our inner and spiritual Identity. This view of things gives me more hope and strength to resist sin as my natural tendency is towards perfectionism which can be crippling and leave one floundering in failure. I think things vary spiritually from person to person with regard to the best thought processes to develop upon failure for one who was flippant about their sin what I do probably would not work.
Read Rom 7 it gives the picture of what I’m attempting to present. There is also the opportunity for us to move onto Rom 8 and a more victorious life, sometimes I get there. Sometimes life saps spiritual vigour and I’m back in chapter 7 but I know by grace I’m still his child and like you so grateful of the gift of confession and repentance made effective by the shed blood of my Saviour.
I find the best antidote for sin is to confess quickly and immediately get back engaged in worshiping and serving Christ rather than remaining focused on past failures. God bless
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chalcedon451 said:
My problem with this, Rob, is that it seems to involve a kind of doublespeak. If we sin, we are sinners – what other meaning can the word possess?
By ‘inner and spiritual identity’ I am not quite sure what you mean? We would say that born in the image of God, that image is marred by the effects of sin, and we can no wise do anything about that by ourselves. For us, this is why Jesus died on the Cross, only that redeeming blood can set us free and begin the process of theosis.
In this process, the sacraments are of inestimable benefit. Taking, as we do, his body and his blood, these work in us toward our sanctification and act as a bulwark against sin; they help restore us.
I am with you in Romans 7. One of the advantages of regular confession is that it helps focus us on now and the future and not the past.
Interesting exchange Rob.
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Rob said:
Sorry ‘C’ for the lengthy reply again. I did not go into the Biblical support for the idea of sinning but not being a sinner by identity and have not personally traced the concept throughout scripture. However Job like the rest of us sinned so in one sense was a sinner, as you rightly say, but he was classified by God as ‘righteous’. He sinned but according to God Job was righteous what are we going to believe in our weakness and failure or God’s declaration, in order to start working out our salvation (which God has already worked in us) and to live up to what He declares about those in Christ.
Jews also have a concept of the righteous Gentile and they differentiate between them and sinners, however their basis for establishing that righteousness is different than that of the NT.
Paul expressed the righteousness which he partook of in Philippians 3:9, as “a righteousness that is through faith … and comes from God”. Paul also speaks of the present calling, justification and glorification of those in Christ Rom. 8:30 and tells us “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God 1 Cor. 6:11. Paul is referring to actions of God on our behalf that attributed these qualities to us by grace. He reminds this church of these things, a church a long way from being sinless.
The point being it is a call for them through confession and repentance to regain the ground that Christ had given them. Most astoundingly Paul claims that those in Christ are already “seated with Christ in heavenly places Eph. 2: 6 (with Him where he is) “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named Eph. 1: 21.”
This is the sort of faith/knowledge we need to be assured of when confronting demons in Christ name they have to then obey and depart. If the demons can cause us to doubt our position in Christ and the authority we have in His name they do not shift. The disciples learnt this lesson early on and were rebuked by Christ for their lack of faith. Faith has a content as we all agree and in relation to the ministry of deliverance / exorcism it is about what faith we have in Christ authority and our current standing with Him. If we think that we are not standing in Christ authority or have compromised ourselves by conscious sin better not address a demon any time soon.
The NT refers to disciples of Christ as saints which is our true spiritual identity. The call and challenge from the Lord as I see it for us to “Live up to what we actually are in Christ”.
I fully agree with Ginny that we must be most careful of presumption about our actual spiritual attainment; while I also consider the view I have suggested places us in better form for the fight against the enemy of our souls and our weak flesh. Rather than living with “I am no more than a miserable sinner mentality” (which is not what I think you would advocate, but is easily fallen into) we can and should, I think, adopt a “we are more than conquerors in Christ mentality Rom. 8”.
When we on occasion are conscious of sin deal with it quick get back on our horse and into the battle. Numerous scriptures tell us that we are far more than “Miserable sinners” and all of it that’s any good is attributed to His redemption and grace not our merit. We need to constantly acknowledge and say what Christ told us in LK. 17:10
“So you too, even when you do all the things which are commanded you, say “we are unworthy bond savants, we have done only that which we ought to have done.”
It is a Biblical and spiritual paradox that these things that seem so opposite – that we who continue to sin have these wonderful spiritual truths declared about us by the Lord Himself. These truths that become a reality as we live in continual confession and repentance and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
As I said I works for my perfectionist mentality that would otherwise be crippling and what I am suggesting in terms of Rom 8:1 is that “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”.
Our task is to keep abiding in the vine in order to bear much fruit.
I am wondering what you think of that lot?
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chalcedon451 said:
No apology necessary – very interesting. Being made righteous by the sacrifice of Christ means we are forgiven, it does not mean we are not sinners, else we should not be needing to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We are rather like recovering alcoholics – we are still alcoholics, and it takes but one slip, and then it is repentance, confession and amendment of life. If we allow the sacramental grace to work on us, and if we work to know his will and do it, then we grow in him.
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chalcedon451 said:
The ‘miserable sinner mentality’ seems to me a Protestant thing. Most Catholics and Orthodox I know do not labour the point, we have Confession, we have the Sacraments and the Saints and Our Lady to aid us, as well as our guardian angel; we are far from alone, we have many to help and to pray for us – all a great comfort.
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Rob said:
Well I rely on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit a very strong company, His very real presence in communion and I suspect some input from my guardian angel at times and of course the fellowship of my brothers, sisters and mentors in the church and the word of God. That seems to have sufficed me these last 58 years.
My branch of evangelicalism as you see does not subscribe to the “miserable sinner mentality” and in practice that is what I think is very negative and I think it paradoxical that we sin yet have all those tremendous things said of us by Christ as we continue in a life of confession and repentance.
A long time ago I real a lovely little book that I recommend by Mother Basilea Schlink a Lutheran nun of the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary “Repentance the Joy filled Life”.
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chalcedon451 said:
Glad to hear it Rob. 😄. Thanks for the tip – I shall get hold of it.
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Rob said:
Maybe out of print perhaps a second hand copy will be available it was a popular book in the 60s Charismatic movement, that movement as all seem to brought some division amongst some evangelicals at the time as bringing more diverse expressions of Christianity into a closer fellowship and appreciation of one another. Michael Harper an early Anglican in the movement later joined the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Dave Smith said:
I would simply reply that our frame of mind as Catholics usually is, “I am weak and a miserable sinner but He is strong and there is no sin in Him.”
We dutifully reply before we receive Him in Communion: “I am not worthy that you should come under my roof but only say the word and my soul will be healed.” In other words we are weak but He can make us worthy by a simple act of His Holy Will. That is, in my mind, the faith that we should have in Christ but held in a rather humble way: relying on Him and not ourselves.
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ginnyfree said:
Oh phooey. Sorry Rob. I failed to answer question three about not being assured of my salvation. To me that is the sin of presumption and can lead to loss of it ALL! That is the slippery slope many slide straight to Hell on. God doesn’t owe me. I owe Him. Presumption tells you you have nothing to worry about and that your sins are forgiven just cause you ask and once that kind of spirituality gets in the door, all attempt to stop sinning cease. It is like dry rot in a house. Poof! the beams holding up the structure turn to dust. It gets complicated. There are many who dismiss sins too easily. It causes the soul to sicken and eventually see no sins at all. That is impossible for all have sinned and need the salvation of our God. I’ve said too much. Sorry for taking too much of your time. Please explore the Divine Mercy. It saves souls for God. Really. God bless. Ginyfree.
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ginnyfree said:
P.P.S. I’m one of the whackos in the pews at Church. I love the Sacrament of Confession and have been told I’m sick in the head by others more than once and they’ve “diagnosed” my illness as scruples. God bless. Ginnyfree. I’m truly shutting up now. Thank you for your patience.
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Rob said:
Parents asked me to counsel their son and his relatively recent wife following some indiscretion and resultant marital disharmony. The son had converted to Catholicism the faith of his wife. After giving all the advice I could I counselled them to go to their priest for confession as that was the church discipline they had voluntarily put themselves under. Just thought that might lighten your heart a bit over your concern for “Us from another fold”.
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ginnyfree said:
Look Rob, any ole time you want to Cross the Tiber, there are quite a few ready and very willing to help. I think you’d make a splendid Catholic fella. have you ever listened to The Journey Home? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA5GVBG_Ijs
I think it really is worth your time to watch all of them. Miracles do happen. You can be one more. I’m a convert too and I honestly think the whole world should be Catholic. I love God that much. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
I also already consider myself a member of Christ Universal church – it does not really make sense to me that the RCC recognises my Trinitarian baptism which by its definition incorporated me into Christ while not recognising that I am also incorporated into Christ’s church. However I am sure you have an answer for that one.
Yes I have watched many episodes of ‘Journey Home’ and they frustrate me immensely. The converts to Catholicism seemed to have such a weak experience of Christ prior to crossing over and I’m unable to put my two Penney worth in.
The most frequent prompt for crossing the Tiber seems to be their desire for a teaching authority, to give them some sense of security. I can understand this but it has never been an issue to me, for two reasons:-
1) Primarily that I fully trust Christ for my salvation, keeping and security and not my own understanding of Him or strength or spirituality, or anyone else’s understanding if it comes to that. As a child of 11 I trusted myself completely into His hands as far as I knew how; and as old Polycarp bishop of Smyrna and disciple of John the beloved said prior to his martyrdom “86 years have I have served him, and he has done me no wrong. How can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?” (Or was it 96 memory fails). I cannot yet claim 86 years just a mere 58 years but He has done me no wrong either.
2) Coming from
another Christian tradition which I believe reflects earlier times more closely I sense no draw to the RCC but we can all still learn from one another.
God bless you Ginny, Rob
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Rob said:
Regarding Bosco’s ‘new spirit’
As I see it Bosco is very poorly taught scripturally and has no information about the closeness of relationship with the apostles by such men as Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement or Papias of whom regrettably we have far too little information.
With regard to Bosco as having ‘received a new spirit’ I take it that he is speaking of his subjective experience, what it felt like when he turned to Christ but unfortunately he has not been able to state what he felt/feels in Biblical terms (perhaps I have this wrong but sometimes we need to understand what a person means rather than analyse their words).
Regarding diagnosis / discerning of evil spirits
I do not know how many here have actual experience of casting out demons. This has been essential in my ministry in evangelism across a number of cultures in which I have worked on a large number of occasions.
Some first rules I have followed very strictly in this work is never to tell someone they have a demon if I do not simultaneously believe:
1) That they are Christians seriously desiring to be obedient to Christ
2) That I and or those with me believe we have the measure of spiritual preparedness and authority to cast the evil spirit out and prepare the subject to resist further infestation.
The Lord gave severe warnings of the latter state of a person who had experienced exorcism (I use the term deliverance) if they were uncommitted to Christ and ill prepared to resist future demonic attacks.
I have met several Christians who have been told that they have a demon and simply left with the diagnosis. The result can be traumatic and just about the worst sort of spiritual abuse that anyone can be subjected to. Perhaps you can imagine the mental state such treatment can lead people into. Similarly to those I have met who very seriously thought they had committed the ‘unpardonable sin’.
Happily (in this regard) Bosco appears to take no notice of anything any of us have to say to him, so I doubt in his case that any harm has been done and I am certain that no harm has been intended by any here at AATWT. But I would suggest we all refrain from offering any such diagnosis. The possibility of accuracy of discernment is reduced without meeting the person.
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Bosco the Great said:
With regard to Bosco as having ‘received a new spirit’ I take it that he is speaking of his subjective experience, what it felt like when he turned to Christ
Silly sons of b&^%$^ts. I didn’t turn to Christ. He grabbed me.
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Rob said:
OK Bosco that amounts to the same thing as far as I’m concerned as there is scriptural president for Christ apprehending conscripts rather roughly for His kingdom. I had forgotten that was how you explained your experience, sorry.
I just think your ‘new spirit’ explanation is an attempt to describe to us what it felt like then and since. Scripturally what happened is that your spirit (humans are tripartite being of body, soul and spirit) which was spiritually dead and unconscious of God’s presence was ‘born again’ Jn. 3 by the renewing of the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5-7. In 1 Jn. 5:10 we read that the one who believes in Christ has the witness of the Holy Spirit within himself. John Wesley a famous 18th century preacher claimed this witness of the Spirit was the evidence and proof of a Christian. Paul also tells us that the one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with the Lord.
I have no doubt that it is this fellowship and witness of the Holy Spirit is what you are now conscious of and if you check this explanation of your experience with one of the teachers at your Calvary Chapel I am sure they will confirm it.
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Bosco the Great said:
The calvary chapel I go to doesn’t have teachers running around. There is a pastor, the one who gets up and does the blah blah and leads In prayer and says whats going on. The emphasis is getting people saved. Once saved, the holy ghost deals with the person. If someones to learn of Christ, they can open a KJV for themselves.
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Rob said:
What do you think the ministry of a teacher is as mentioned in the NT e.g. Eph. 4:11-15 but also mentioned inmany other places e.g. Acts 13:1?
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chalcedon451 said:
Ifyou are a good example of where that leads, God help you all – a more ignorant, less loving and charitable person than yourself would be hard to find.
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Bosco the Great said:
As I see it Bosco is very poorly taught scripturally . (;-D
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, the only person here who does not realise your appalling ignorance of what Scripture means is you. What a work you could do for the Lord were you better informed of the meaning of his holy and life-giving word. Has your mission here had any success? No, it has simply exposed the vast depth of your ignorance.
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Rob said:
Discerning of Spirits
I should add that it is possible that an antagonist against a particular Christian community (even if they were convinced that community to be false) could be inspired in their activity by a demon or that their genuine efforts could be being influenced by a demon e.g. we could rave with anger against JWs and be far from the Spirit of Christ in doing it. Having read most all of Boscos comments, personally I could not make a diagnosis.
However I was invited by a presbyter of 36 churches around Modest, California I preached 5 nights a week in six of the churches. The pastor inviting me led one of the churches which had 3,500 attending members. He asked me to meet one of his church members who was causing a problem in the church. The issue was that the pastor was on friendly terms with the leading Catholic clergy in the city and the individual he was concerned about constantly made all the claims (and more) about the RC Church as our own Bosco and disturbed the church over the pastors relationships.
I met the gentleman (if that were the right term for him) and it was not what he was saying about the RCC but his whole manner and attitude that led me to believe that he had a demon working through him in his vitriol against the RCC.
He had been brought up in the RCC but had no living faith until he encountered some Pentecostals and experienced a conversion to Christ. However this and materials he digested led him to be convinced that it was impossible for a member of the RCC to be a Christian. I used several approaches to reason with him and show him the unreasonableness of his opinions, sadly without any success. I did not tell that I though he was demonised I was sure in myself that such an approach would have produced no good.
I advise Bosco and any Christian that is convinced that the RCC is the Babylon of Revelation to read Rev. 18:1-4 and particularly verse 4 “I heard another voice from heaven saying ‘come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins’”.
I understand my use of this text is cold comfort for Catholics but what it says to the Boscos of this world is that God has His people even in Babylon whatever the Boscos might consider Babylon to be. That being so it is not the place of anyone to deny that anyone else claiming to be a Christian and exhibiting evidence of their faith does not know the Lord. This at least allows us to regard godly persons from whatever Christian community holding to the essential doctrines of the creed as brothers and sisters in Christ.
And that’s about my final Bosco comment as I am as tired of his repetitive post as the rest of us!
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chalcedon451 said:
Rob, I am grateful, but genuinely puzzled by this spirit Bosco claims to have. Do Evangelicals believe in a spirit apart from the Holy Spirit?
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cathy said:
Using Occam’s razor I suspect the inadequacy is in our ability to express the ineffable. No demons around, therefore.
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Rob said:
On the contrary it seems likely that 1/3 of the original heavenly host are now demonic. Of what number the heavenly host is we have no idea but the Lord created a great number of stars and I doubt He would be less productive in the creation of spiritual being. So we all need to be keeping in close step with the master.
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cathy said:
Oh dear, you took my comment about this thread to be a universal statement? I will have to be more careful.
One third of the heavenly host may well be demonic, but that does not mean we can extrapolate to those who respond here in this place to this thread, and conclude that one third of them are demons. It is in the context of this place and this thread that I can confidently conclude there are no demons.
Ymmv.
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Rob said:
I generally agree and like your response and generous spirit, but I do have a slight suspicion and concern for one visitor here who wishes to have me burnt.
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chalcedon451 said:
Oh I shouldn’t worry too much, there are probably moods in which I’d be ahead of you in his list 🙂
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Rob said:
I’m not worried for myself but for our friend in question. I have literally put myself where my life was in danger for the sake of the gospel on a few occasions. The chance of a martyr’s crown after some of my mess-ups would be entirely welcome. Besides we all have to go some way or other and being burnt out I think preferable to just wearing out!
My one request would be “Please will you use green wood” as Calvin specified for Servetus. I used to think that was particularly cruel to prolong poor Servetus’ suffering by have come to understand it was a morsel of kindness on the part of Calvin as green wood would probably have rendered him unconscious and dead from smoke inhalation with less torment. Then again perhaps Calvin was kicking himself after not having realised that fact.
There has been no limit to what has been done in the name of Christ and as Jesus said of the ‘Sons of Thunder’, “They do not know what spirit they are off”.
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cathy said:
If the refining fire is that encountered by Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego then those of pure heart and spirit who genuinely seek the truth can have nothing to fear from it.
The worst accusation against dear B seems to be that he lacks information and enlightenment. Last time I looked being uninformed was not a sin (fortunately for me!), and I am rather disturbed by the strength of language being used towards him.
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chalcedon451 said:
I think the worst that can said aganst him is that he spreads slander and runs a website which is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. That said, I am genunely fond of him, and will not yeild to the cried to ban him. he is not atypical of a type of Protestantism, although one could wish it gone!
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Rob said:
Thanks for the response and I apologise unreservedly to Bosco if I seemed to have been treating him unkindly. His response to my post was “Thanks I think!” Which I think is a reflection of my attempt to address both him and others here.
I do not think to be uniformed is a sin either but there may be unhappy consequences such as the rejection that I understand he has received from many sites.
Bosco is from the evangelical or what is labelled the ‘born again camp’ of Christians as am I. Often a misunderstood community with its own internal differences. I have tried to show Bosco points that all evangelicals are in agreement on and suggested on a number of occasions that he run what I offer past his pastor or other friends that he respects as Christians in order to get clarification.
I do not intend to be rude or judgemental of Bosco but when I write I am also trying to share my impression of Bosco with others here; as I believe Bosco is a genuine Christian and brother in Christ. While others here at times have questioned that. In other words I was suggesting to others here that Bosco was uninformed rather than unconverted as they have recently been suggesting. They may be doing that as tit for tat in a provocative way to make him think as Bosco has repeatedly claimed that he is the only Saved person (read for that real Christian) here at AATWT.
I cannot say what others motives are but over the long haul here I am sure Chalcedon and SF do not mean to be unfriendly towards Bosco while Ginny ticks him off a bit but also prays for him which is commendable.
However I was very concerned when a suggestion/statement was made that Bosco had a demon and required exorcism. While those making the statement were not in a position to bring healing to him if indeed it were even required. I have seen first-hand the damage that has done to some Christians, which is why I went to some length on that matter. I think I was far stronger in dealing with others claims about Bosco than in what I suggested might be the case.
I hope that clarifies what I was attempting to achieve.
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chalcedon451 said:
Rob – I was indeed trying to pull him up short and make him think about what he is doing, He is so comfortable with unkind generalisations that he needs to find a way to reflect rather than repeat.
I think, given what he says every day about the Catholic Church, that we are generally pretty tolerant – I know of no other site which allows him to keep going in that vein, and there are, as you probably know, those here who want me to follow suite. I shan’t, because I love him as a fellow child of God – but sometimes it is necessary to fire a shot across his bows.
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Rob said:
I quite agree and believed your motives were as you have stated them but I could not speak for you. However I am glad that you have stated your motivation and hope that will satisfy what another thought of as unfair in your comments.
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chalcedon451 said:
I hope so too. I am concerned for Bosco, and sometimes it can help to pull someone up short and ask them to be self-reflexive.
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Dave Smith said:
Hi Rob. In response, as a personal opinion, I believe that this whole monopolizing of the conversation and introspection that it brings about in the commentators is precisely the goal of Bosco and that we merely feed his appetite for such. Absolve yourself of any such feelings, please.
Exorcism has been and is being used as if it is a dirty word and a pronouncement of evil on the person themselves. It is not, as you well know. It is the workings of the evil one who is active among all who walk this earth. We each need protection from their wrath and some more than others. We are not sure as to why and how some are afflicted by possession or merely fight skirmishes with evil. That said, people (even those possessed) often opened themselves to this evil by drugs, rock and roll, grave sin or dabbling in the occult. They are not being singled out as ‘evil’ people . . . only those who need extra help to defend themselves against evil. So I do not think that such a suggestion, suggests anymore than that: which is an act of Christian charity; not tit for tat, mean spiritedness for mean spiritedness. Such may exist in some but I am not a reader of hearts and minds.
I myself use a minor exorcism written on my St. Benedict Medal. I know I need the help. We all say our Baptismal promises once a year which is also a minor exorcism; because the Church knows we are in need of it (even if some modernist priests deny the fact).
At any time when I find myself in utter confusion about the Church because I cannot reconcile one teaching from another and am desperate, as QVO is as well, we get despondent and we seem to know instinctively as soon as the fog is thick around a subject of what is holy and what is not or what is evil and what is not, that Satan is not far off. For his lies are at the heart of misunderstandings and all confusion relating to the holy and to the diabolic as well. Simply put, from time to time even the saints have dealt rather directly with diabolic evil. We should only thank God if we were spared such a battle. It is no dishonor to be in need of exorcism or to actually find oneself under possession. What is an evil, would be to ignore the need. You are right. We cannot do anything about a virtual need: one must be in a position to actually get the person to agree to seek help.
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ginnyfree said:
Well Said SF. You’ve such a level head. Bravo! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dave Smith said:
Thank you, Ginny. I was going to try out my new hearing aid analogy on Rob but went the other way. My hearing analogy is this.
We all are born with our understanding in a state of near deafness. At baptism we are given a hearing aid and things become a bit clearer. Sadly, for us, Satan is allowed to interrupt the frequency of the hearing aids and create static. 1) We have three choices then: We can go to the Church and have our hearing aid tweaked and work with them to deliver a loud and clear voice or 2) we can try to fix it ourselves which usually results in more static or 3) we ignore it until Satan tunes the device toward himself . . . loud and clear but also clearly wrong. Number three seems to be the state of Bosco where most of us are somewhere between number 2 or number 1.
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Rob said:
I like the hearing aid analogy very much and it fits my understanding of the human spirit as in body, soul, and ‘spirit’ comprising a human person, which we have discussed previously. I will use your analogy in future, Thanks!
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Dave Smith said:
Well given that our understanding motivates our will to do good or evil, it does point out the difficulty we have as humans in evaluating whether our particular understanding is infallible or not. We need to keep on our toes so to speak. 🙂
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Rob said:
I fully agree with all you wrote here – “Exorcism has been and is being used as if it is a dirty word and a pronouncement of evil on the person themselves. It is not, as you well know. It is the workings of the evil one who is active among all who walk this earth. We each need protection from their wrath and some more than others. We are not sure as to why and how some are afflicted by possession or merely fight skirmishes with evil. That said, people (even those possessed) often opened themselves to this evil by drugs, rock and roll, grave sin or dabbling in the occult. They are not being singled out as ‘evil’ people . . . only those who need extra help to defend themselves etc …..”.
The sad fact is that many conversions to Christ lack the depth of spiritual work, faith or understanding of many ministers in all Christian communities to undo the workings of Satan in the lives of converts prior to their conversion. Many make a very genuine initial response to Christ but are left struggling with various levels of demonic infestation picked up through the sort of things you mention and through a host of other practices that they may have even innocently engaged in.
In my studies I made a complete list of every type of demon mentioned in scripture and analysed all the means of entrance alluded to and read a shelf full of books on exorcism by Catholics, Anglicans, evangelical Quakers, Pentecostals and others.
My only concern was that telling someone they require exorcism while not being available to them to help or to know their preparedness for this announcement it can be damaging to a person’s psychological stability.
With all new converts to Christ that I have been responsible for teaching part of the work has been to carry out an inventory of the major types of practices that may have given inroads for demonic infestation. Through confession, repentance, and renunciation of each particular issue followed by a command for the demon to depart almost but not quite all persons so ministered to found a liberty in their spiritual progress.
I was very interested in what you referred to as a regular ‘minor exorcism’ performed by Catholics, I had not heard of this. Self-deliverance through the process I describe is practiced by many Charismatic believers, we have more in common that at first sight. The need was brought home to me through a very Godly and prayerful preacher who was ministered frequently in deliverance. I heard him preach about deliverance a year before he died at the age of 95 he explained how a year previous he discerned that he required deliverance from a demon and that he dealt with it. No doubt some here might find this all rather extreme but as they say an ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory (but best to have both).
Some pastors engaged in this ministry get overburdened with people coming to them from other churches. I visited a church in San Antonio for several weeks as part of my training and for personal help. The pastor said that those who catch fish should learn how to clean their own fish and not leave it to others.
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed, and it is the reason that Exorcists are chosen from the most spiritually adept of men, known for their piety and growth in holiness. It is not something that is encouraged among the laity . . . it is best left to the ‘professionals’ who are thoroughly adept in recognizing the difference between psychological and menal anomalies and the manifestations of an evil influence. We are busy training many more at this particular time as it has been shunned by most moderns. Fr. Amorth has been interviewed many times and I’m sure, if you haven;t done so already, find him interesting in his experiences and accounts of the many cases he has taken part in. I doubt anyone alive today was involved in more exorcisms than he has. When asked if he is afraid, he responded htat it was exactly the opposite; that the evil spirits were frightened of him. But his faith and confidence came from a humble submission to the power of God and the Rite of Exorcism; prayers to Our Lady, St. Michael the Archangel and all the helps that the Church can provide to those afflicted. So humbly we should always have confidence in the promises of Christ. We do have recourse to defeat evil in these cases . . . and it is from the working of Christ through faith. I am glad that there is some training for you as it is a dangerous business if you are not well skilled in the wiles and the lies and the manifestations that the evil can create by word or by act: levitations and many other strange phenomenon. Malachi Martin was rather interesting as well and had a number of stories of interest. Such a ministry is risky business and one must be prepared to deal with it and know what to expect. But keeping oneself free of sin and in a state of grace is important for the ministers of exorcism. Full possession is not very prominent in the modern countries as their belief in the supernatural has dwindled . . . so full possession is hardly something that the devils waste their time with. But it is still rampant as many people dabble in New Age beliefs and host of other things. So at the very least they need some help: whether it is a minor or a major exorcism.
The other misnomer is that once freed from a demon that the exorcism is done with. And that is not always the case. Some people must continue the process for years though have vastly improved. It takes a trained eye to know when the process is fully complete.
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Rob said:
Again I agree with all this and the need of wisdom and caution without fear.
My first experience was a demon manifesting in a prayer meeting in our home the lady was from south East Asia. At that time I had red nothing about demons except some brief reports in a book by a missionary. Something had to be done and there was no one else to do it so I just followed 101 instructions from the gospel and told the demon to get out in Jesus name and it left the woman immediately.
Following that experience I worked for some time alongside a mentor experience in that ministry, received instruction in that ministry by national evangelical leaders of some stature, read a lot prayed a bit, never entered a battle if I was spiritually not in the best form I knew how to be. I only rarely carried out this ministry alone when there was no prayer support available to assist. I rarely ministered in this way to individuals who were not members of the churches we were assisting to lead. In this way we worked as a team and were able to observe and follow up on results etc.
My experience in this ministry has been in UK, some of which was amongst immigrants, USA, South Africa amongst the coloured population and in the Caribbean; each has its own distasteful varieties.
I have never experienced any fear in during the ministry usually my spirit senses a great joy in anticipating the deliverance of the subject. Initially I would wake the following morning shaking and with a sense of nervousness which I considered the demons activity to stop the service to others. As I prayed and continued to do what Christ commanded i.e. to cast out spirits that aftermath of morning nervousness soon ceased.
I do not claim to be an expert but and have never dealt with a case of total possession but someone has to help ensnared souls and in the UK I knew of no other evangelical in our city regularly if at all engaged in the work. However I do not go out of my way to find such tasks but attempt to deal with what crosses my path as and when I sense it is the will of God for me to do so. which would not be in every case I meet up with.
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Dave Smith said:
I wise way to proceed I would think . . . as there are times when the manifestations are very extreme and very knowledgeable and holy people are required. Pope Saint John Paul II exorcised a woman in the throngs who welcomed him in one of his travels. She writhered and screamed and then went limp. This was reported in the media and nobody knew exactly what had happered. The person was then cared for by Fr. Amarth. And she continues to have problems and the demons are very stubborn and he is a very experienced exorcist . . . so it isn’t always cut and dry. But the major manifestation was removed after the Pope prayed over her and the ongoing treatments are more for minor manifestations of evil that seem determined to torment this holy soul. It is fascinating.
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Rob said:
I’m not sure if I have mentioned another of my friends previously. For a number of years he headed up the Baptist denomination in Wales UK. Previously his church was in the docks area of Cardiff City where Shirley Bassey was born and first sang in pubs and seedy clubs in a run-down and tough locality that locals called Tiger Bay.
Anyway there was a large Muslim immigrant community in the area. One time this Muslim woman came to my pastor friend seeking deliverance from an evil spirit. He cast the demon out of her and preached the Gospel of Christ. Her response was that she could not become a Christian as she was Muslim.
Sometime later she came back in a worse state and my friend repeated the process and got the same response from her. Later she returned again in a worsened condition this time as the demon was cast out of her she levitated towards the ceiling. Again she got a dose of Gospel truth but gave the same response I am a Muslim.
My friend said never return to me again unless you are prepared to make Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. I am sure he realised he should have taken this approach sooner as Christ warning was being fulfilled in her experience. Her latter state becoming worse that her former as the demons repeatedly returned with others more evil than themselves and finding access in a soul devoid of Christ’s grace.
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Dave Smith said:
That does not surprise me, Rob.
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ginnyfree said:
Rob, poor ole Bosco is actually a stray Catholic. It’s been a while for him and this wreck that he’s made of himself is the result. I hope and pray he makes the decision to return. It really wouldn’t be that hard for him to do so. He’d cry a lot and beat his chest doing the Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa for a while and he’d have to end his days of blaspheming at his website and a few other things, but he’d make it with room to spare. Worse sinners than he’s been have made it back home to Rome. Part of his trouble is giving up his treasures “bad boy” image. He’d have to simply be himself and he’s not sure who that is because he allowed his bad behaviors to determine who he is for so long, he thinks they are him, if you understand what I mean. But Jesus see beyond all that to the soul underneath the dirt. Don’t get me wrong, his soul is in mortal jeopardy and he needs serious help getting right with God. There is always reason to hope though. His despair is still only his. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Does the roman exorcist wear a special costume?
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ginnyfree said:
Actually Bosco, they are supposed to dress for the occasion. Can we arrange it for you so you can see first hand how they dress? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
I would not have a clue ask one of our Catholic friends.
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Bosco the Great said:
all these prayers might be working on me. I feel its time, maybe, to join the catholic church. After all, if its Christs church, better be safe than sorry. tomorrow ill go to the local roman temple and ask about membership. Thanks everyone, for your prayers.
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chalcedon451 said:
Ah, the old switcheroony, eh? This spirit you have,, seems to like lying a lot. Ever wondered about that?
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ginnyfree said:
Well then Cathy, say what you mean and mean what you say. The demons are real and denying them doesn’t shoo them away. It is foolishness in my humble opinion to deny their existence, all razors of any sort aside. The lie that makes the devil the happiest is that he doesn’t exist. Repeating this lie for him in places where others may actually believe that help him, not Christ. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
I always say what I mean, and I always mean what I say, and I do not take kindly to suggestions to the contrary. With the best will in the world I cannot be responsible for every single episode of lack of understanding on the part of every reader.
I suggest you retract your suggestion that I have lied or contributed to any such lie, or else we are likely to fall out. Rapidly.
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Bosco the Great said:
Cat Fight ! ! !
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Bosco the Great said:
(;-D
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cathy said:
No fight. Just a line in the sand, that is all.
Call me old fashioned but I don’t take kindly to posts saying, ‘You’re a liar. God bless.’
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Rob said:
Please do not take offence at my comment as previously I have rather lost my composure replying to comments and perhaps this has not been the case for yourself. I now remind myself of Jesus example:-
“When He was reviled He reviled not again”
Since I have found that when answered in a gentle spirit further replies from others are most always respectful.
My part in all relationships is to learn to re-act rightly to others actions towards me. It for each of us to determine that we are content that our comments do not cause or further strife.
Hope I have been helpful in encouraging continual comments, rather than seeing people offended by others and leaving AATWT.
Kick me in the pants if you consider my comments presumptuous.
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cathy said:
Not at all presumptous; you are perfectly correct and I did indeed try the gentle approach which turneth away wrath. Your response was warm and kind; elsewhere I suspect it was interpreted as weakness.
I ignored several unfortunate comments, and would be happy to go as far as 70 x 7, but not when there is a danger that our faith would be brought into disrepute by such comments made publicly between Christians. It is for that reason that I drew a line.
Every single abuse begins with a boundary violation and we are all within our rights as people and even as Christians to make clear where our boundaries lie. Doing this is not an act of aggression.
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Rob said:
I did not venture to judge your motives and you did not indicate you thought I had. Your reply explains valid motives to me.
Something to think about:
70 X 7 = 490 times Jesus suggest we should forgive our brother/Sister. That is what I always thought He meant and that he was simply saying forgive lots and lots. Then a fairly new convert suggested He meant something else and I am now inclined to think he was right.
Think about it first – if the Lord forgives us infinitely and instructs us to be perfect as He is perfect, do you think he would be downgrading His forgiveness scale to accommodate us?
Give me your reply and I tell what a convert at our church while in UK suggested.
Others might also try to provide the answer this.
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cathy said:
This is a subject worth a whole post on its own.
Briefly, yes, of course. Forgiveness until we can’t forgive any more, and then some. That goes without saying.
But there is a separate issue which we are rather more aware of these days, and that is giving people an inch and them taking a mile, aka abuse.
What dear Chalcedon knows but you would not realise is that I am disabled because of chronic abuse. This makes me rather more sensitive than might otherwise be expected. I can spot verbal abuse the way a policeman can spot a speeding car, or a lifeguard a drowning child. And my reaction to it will be much the same; deal with it.
This is a separate issue from forgiveness. If I request that someone not call me a liar that does not mean I bear a grudge, or dislike them, or even much care, to be honest; such language actually says nothing about me at all. But I do care that one Christian using unParliamentary language to another rather casts a shadow on our faith. It is verbal abuse, with or without ‘God bless’ tagged on the end, and it is not acceptable.
In short, the Lord does not ask me to allow other people to call me names, only to forgive them when they do.
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Rob said:
I know what you mean Cathy I have been associated with various churches for 58 years and in that time suffered much abuse at various times in them. I took me quite a while to recognise it and then stand against it and more time to recover. My injuries were relational and psychological rather than physical but nevertheless very real.
Abuse from authority figures and particularly that which goes under the guise of spirituality is very wicked, harmful and a subject covered in scripture.
About the 70 x 7 I was asking only asking about possible interpretations of what Jesus meant nevertheless your reply has helped me understand your circumstances far better. I am deeply sorry to hear of the abuse you have suffered. You are correct it is a subject that definitely requires a post and much discussion. A counsellor friend of mine has written a short book on abuse and works with victims of it.
Well back to the 70 x 7 scripture
The convert I was teaching, said he thought Jesus was referring to the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 about the seventy sevens, which predicts the end of this age and the coming of the age to come. He said Jesus was teaching the church to forgive till the end of the age.
I think he was right, in listening Jesus teaching as a rabbi I doubt that His audience would have assessed His doctrine in terms of its mathematical accuracy but according to their scriptures.
So I reckoned I had learnt something from a new convert as well as a bit of humility, particularly as I had been teaching him. How he arrived at his explanation of forgiving “Until 70 x 7” I do not know.
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cathy said:
That is a very good explanation. 🙂 I like the onion approach to exegesis; not either or but both and. Lots of layers; and why not?
I was abused at my last church. I am still trying to persuade the Diocese to listen to me about it. Long story, very. The response is to tell me to move on; over and over again the same message; move on.
I can sympathise with anyone who has encountered similarly damaging behaviour. Spiritual abuse is one of the very worst kinds; certainly as harmful as anything else I have encountered, and there is not much I haven’t, one way or another. The worst abusers are not the obvious ones, but those who start out charming but escalate their abuse bit by bit so that we can’t see it happening. And from a minister the effect can be devastating.
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Rob said:
I have just written an account of our experiences of abuse and recovery that might encourage you, about 700 words. I get rather self-conscious that I’m overdoing thing with long comments that others may not want to be bothered with. I will post if you indicate that you would like to read it.
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cathy said:
I have written some of mine as well, but it is not published. Feel free to send yours to Cathyafy@aol.com, and then your decision of when and where to make it public remains for the future. If you are unsure about sending it, then don’t worry; there has to be a time for such things, but it doesn’t have to be now. And you can ask dear Chalcedon if I can be trusted. 🙂
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ginnyfree said:
Cathy, as a general rule, I don’t communicate with anyone beyond these little forums. I do not give my email addy out, nor do I email to those who offer. Don’t take it personally. I simple have firm boundaries and stick to them. Thanks for the offer though. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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cathy said:
That post was not addressed to you.
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Rob said:
Many evangelicals believe that man is a tripartite being composed of body, soul and spirit whereas I understand that the Orthodox view considers man a bipartite being composed of body and soul following a Platonic explanation rather than a scriptural one. As Tertullian said what has Jerusalem got to do with Athens?
In paradise Adam was warned “in the day you eat of it (tree of knowledge) you will die” but scripture records that he lived for many years after this. In Eph. 2 we learn that pre our conversion to Christ we were dead in our trespasses and sins.
So we have to ask in what sense or what part of our composition was dead? It was not the body or the soul which allows for social interaction with one another. It was the spirit of man that was dead towards God and out of living communion with Him.
Further in Jn. 3 Jesus tells us that what is born of the Holy Spirit is spirit revealing that it is this part of the human composition that requires life. So in this sense (though I have never used the phrase) I could say that I received a new spirit at my conversion (I got a live one in place of a dead one) just as we might say of notorious sinner that he became a new man at conversion. Whereas the truth of the matter is a renewed spirit a reborn spirit.
There are also other good spirits i.e. angels that believers may be aware of following conversion. Of course angels do not inhabit believers as the Holy Spirit does. But Jesus spoke of the guardian angels who care for His little ones and that they are always are beholding the face of God. I take this to refer to their direct awareness of God and when God so wills it these angels may minister to the needs of believers even as they did to Jesus. Whether each believer has a guardian angel assigned to them at conversion would probably be stretching that scripture. However I do hold out some hope that as one of God’s little one He has assigned an angel to my case.
I have never heard any evangelical even mention guardian angels but Jesus said they are on the job so that’s good enough for me.
I think that’s a comprehensive evangelical and Biblical view and hope it clarifies things.
As I have said and we agree Bosco seems unable to describe his experience in scriptural terms. He has himself stated that he cannot explain it and has in the attempt misconstrued Jn. 3:13 which refers to Jesus ‘The Son of Man’, a well-known Messianic title.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank Rob. I am not sure that body and soul is simply Platonic, as it is present in the OT. There was a time when Bible scholarship missed this, as with the fact that ‘logos’ has nothing to do with Plato and everything to do with the Wisdom literature, but then as Protestants lack those books from the OT, I guess the mistake is natural enough.
Angels do, indeed, minister to us, and that Evangelicals don’t mention them is another sign of what happens when you close down one whole avenue of Christian history and experience; I am glad, but not surprised, that you believe in them.
I’m grateful to you for taking the trouble to help us out here.
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Rob said:
I think that the OT mentions body, soul and spirit of man rather than merely body and soul. I will do a bit of a concordance search on that. However I think we both agree that revelation was progressive and Paul clearly speaks of the dedication of our body, soul and spirit to Christ.
There is also an interesting and instructive reference to the distinction between the soul and spirit in Hebrews where we are told that the word of God divides between soul and spirit (which necessitates the existence of both and their distinction) enabling us to discern our entirely natural soulish thoughts or knowledge from those that are from the Holy Spirit and in line with divine truth.
Another is a reference in the magnificent of Mary who says, “My soul magnifies the Lord (present tense) and my spirit has (past tense) rejoiced in God my Saviour”.
I think the human spirit is what Paul also refers to as ‘the inner man’ in Eph. 3:14-19 where he speaks of us receiving knowledge that is beyond knowledge. The subject here is revelation through the Holy Spirit and fullness of God the Spirit. The human spirit is the organ (so to speak) that is capable of receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit and the mental faculties of the redeemed soul are then able to consider and search out the understanding of the revelation.
So it seems to have been the case with Mary her spirit engaged with God ‘rejoicing in the Lord’ and her soul caught up later ‘magnifying the Lord’.
What follows (read on if you wish) is an illustration from my personal experience sorry if it’s long winded but it’s the only way I can illustrated my own consciousness of the difference I experience between the activity of my spirit and that of my soul. Well at least that is what it seems to me, to be taking place on various occasions. I think this lines up with scripture and it certainly does with the church communities I have been involved with (I agree about no private interpretations and about the importance of the discernment of a Christian community). Here’s the example:-
Attending a meeting I was asked to introduce myself and make conversation with a guest pointed out to me by the organiser. I guess you know that normally I would immediately respond and do so. However immediately on seeing him from a distance, inside I knew he had a demon, though there was nothing about his behaviour or appearance to indicate this. I did not approach him but waited as I knew something would develop. At the end of the meeting as is common in evangelical meetings the man went forward to publically make an initial commitment to Christ and was led to a side room by a counsellor. Now I knew was the time to act, as trouble was sure to occur. I followed on from across the room and joined the man and the counsellor.
The man thought having expressed a desire to become a Christian became unnaturally argumentative at every point. I knew the blockage was a demon/s and now used my knowledge of this type of problems to find the source. I asked him what occult practices he was involved with and he gave me a verbal list. I showed him scriptures which identified his practices as sins but he would not agree with the scriptures and so no repentance was forthcoming.
After a while I said “This debating the issues is pointless, I will show these things you are doing are evil”. I laid my hand on his head and rebuked the demons; assertively but not loudly, at other times considering the circumstances I have had to issue such rebukes in a whisper which is just as effective. Demons are not hard of hearing as some Pentecostals seem to think by their actions. The man immediately began to shake violently and uncontrollably then when confronted again with His sin he agreed that what he was doing was evil. I believe the prayer command in Jesus name broke the deceptive grip of the demons so that the man could acknowledge the truth and repent which he did.
The preacher for the meeting approached and I began to explain the problem. He was a man of great discernment and stopped me before I said a few words saying “You do not have to explain I know the problem”. He then simply touched the man and said ‘poor fella’. The man was thrown violently to the floor heaved up and down several times then stood up perfectly calm saying I’m free, whereupon he then made his commitment to Christ and subsequently joined a church and progressed as a disciple.
I hope you can see the point of what I believe I have illustrated; knowledge beyond knowledge was revealed to my spirit by the Holy Spirit imparting to me a situational gift of ‘discerning of spirits’ 1 Cor. 12:10, followed by the use of scripture knowledge and experience to find exactly the type of demonic activity the man needed to repent of prior to effective deliverance from the demons. These gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 are not those of the preacher / practitioner they are the Holy Spirit’s gifts distributed to meet the requirements of a given situation.
Hope I’m not a bore but amongst my reasons for being here are that we might experience the power of God’s truth in ministering to a broken world rather than just talk about it.
Again on the topic of angels – several people at different times claimed that they saw an angel in our home while we were holding a prayer meeting, I saw nothing but at times felt a strong holy presence in the room.
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chalcedon451 said:
Many thanks, Rob, yes, that all makes sense to me, and I’m grateful to you for taking the time.
The possession story reminds us of the reality of the devil’s work.
Bosco puzzles me. Sometimes he seems almost calm and rational, at others he simply lapses into rote repeating of things he claims are from Jesus but simply cannot be as they are lies. The fruit of this new spirit in him is, to judge by his deplorable blog (I finally forced myself to look at it) not that we would expect from God. He does worry me, I am fond of him, but there is something there which is beyond me – but may not be beyond you.
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Rob said:
I do not think any of us can easily determine what is going on in another’s inner life without personal contact in order to experience their attitudes and intentions etc unless we are given one of those spiritual gifts for the situation such as ‘a word of knowledge’, ‘word of wisdom’ or ‘distinguishing of spirits’.
One thing that has been a growing awareness to me is that when he is cornered by plain scripture e.g. this ‘new spirit’ he will not acknowledge that he is mistaken. I had thought that this was to avoid giving any ground to the Catholics here at AATWT and in so doing to weaken what he was attempting in good faith. But as I’m thinking on this just now the impression of the words ‘stiff-necked’ and ‘stubborn’ understood in their Biblical context come quite strongly to (I think) my spirit. I’ll say no more.
Bosco if you are reading this pray and consider whether this rings true to you and if it does repent of those attitudes and get godly advice from someone you trust. If the words do not strike a chord with you as being a part of your character then discard them until and unless the Holy Spirit convicts you of them.
Bosco I love you (As its one of your hobby horses, I will say not gay way!) and I will pray for you particularly as I consider you to be my brother in Christ.
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chalcedon451 said:
The reason I persevere is, of course, that I share that view. I found his site disturbing, but that may be my sensibiilities.
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Rob said:
Any Catholic with a love of their church and tradition is bound to have a painful emotional response to such attacks. I do not share your distinctive Catholic views but think that when we properly understand one another some of our views are not as far off beam as we might first think of each other.
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chalcedon451 said:
My view entirely – as Pusey once wrote:
‘I am, however, more and more convinced that there is less difference between right-minded persons on both sides than these often suppose’
Many thanks, C.
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Bosco the Great said:
Thank you good brother Rob. What do you want me to repent of, by the way?
That I call the roman state run religion a snake pit? Its a cult of homosexuality, plain and simple. The priests are mostly gay and the nuns are top heavy lesbians. What nice things would you have me say?
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ginnyfree said:
Say nice things to Cathy. She’s new around here and doesn’t quite know what to make of the place.
So, you don’t approve of my reading list. Too bad. Did you read Exodus 28 yet? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Rob said:
I was not asking you to repent of any of those things Bosco. I was asking you to consider whether you think you have a streak the ‘stubborn’ and ‘stiff-necked’ in character. Pray about it and if you do not think so just let my words fall to the ground.
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Bosco the Great said:
Stop asking me if I read 28. What do you think? You think I haven’t read it? get a grip.
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Bosco the Great said:
Stubborn. My grandma used to call me that. Would you prefer I was politically correct?
Behind every graven image is a demon. Do you want me to smile and wave while my brothers slide down into hell? or do you want me to warn them?
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chalcedon451 said:
Neither – getting educated is what might help – but you seem to enjoy knowing nothing.
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Rob said:
That’s interesting that your grandmother noticed that trait (if indeed she did). You might consider stubbornness to be a good quality in terms of ‘sticking to your guns’ in a debate of which there is value until you search things out as the Bereans and change if you find you are in error. But generally stubbornness is considered in negative contexts and is close to being ‘stiff-necked’ which the Bible identifies as a sin. One that I have also to be very careful of. I suggest again, particularly following your grandmothers advice that you pray about it – scripture informs us “that there is wisdom in a multitude of councillors”, which is why we would all be wise to part of a godly and scriptural Christian community.
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Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Chalcedon, thanks for visiting my Roman site. Come back and sign in and enjoy yourself.
Cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
come and find rest for your soul.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco – if you are saying that site bears witness to the spirit in you, I should be worried were I you.
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ginnyfree said:
It seems different. Did you change it a bit?
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Bosco the Great said:
I did update it. But its the same old song. Im gonna go in and update it again, when the spirit moves me.
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ginnyfree said:
You should unplug it Bosco!!!!
A firm purpose of amendment is necessary for validity on your part in the confessional. “Bless me Father for I have sinned………I HAD a very nasty anti-Catholic website but I’ve stopped all that…………” I can compare it to this: “Bless me Father for I have sinned………I’m still cheating on my wife but I feel guilty so here I am…………” In example number two, no absolution can be (nor should be) given until the situation is rectified, i.e. the guy stops cheating and ends whatever affair he’s having not just in his mind but face to face with the person(s) involved. Does that help you Mr. Bosco the Great?
I wish I could be there when you do finally confess. I want to watch your poor tired shoulders heave as your burden is lifted and you weep in the pew afterwards. It is a miracle I love to see happen. The Peace of Christ is what you still don’t have. You can say you have it. You can try to force the feeling to happen. You can mistake other things for it, but the Peace of Christ is only had after the Sacrament settles into the soul and does its work. He said He would give it, not as the world gives, but from an out-of-the-world experience of His Divine Mercy. This can only be had from the Sacrament. It is the same as the Eucharist in this way. Only in the Eucharist can we partake of His Body and Blood, so only in the Sacrament of Penance will we encounter the Peace of Christ. He willed it to be that way and so it is. I know venial sins can be forgiven in other ways, but the Sacrament has a uniqueness that cannot be found in those other ways. He gave us this gift of Himself in this way for a reason and I love it. Okie dokie Bosco. I apologize for the little rant. Sorry. It is my favorite soapbox to stand on. Forgive me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
Oh no good sister ginny, now that I have joined the catholic church, I need to hear the working of my new beloved religion. I cant wait to crawl into that box with the priest to get rid of my myriads of sins. Thank out Mary.
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ginnyfree said:
Rob. just so you know, no one here is even remotely attempting to impersonate a doctor and offering any kind of diagnosis, especially Chalcedon. We aren’t trying to. It is foolish to ignore the vehement hatred that at times Bosco has either directed himself of has pretended to have towards the things of God and His Church on earth as well as her Pastors and Saints. It is a constant reviling of the things of God which are Holy. This constant mockery makes the demons dance with glee. The level of sin it speaks of isn’t common among men. Ever hear of a thing called diabolical hatred? Well, even if Bosco doesn’t actually have that level of hatred, he does his best at times to project and image of that here and it does get aimed at some of the persons here. THAT is real and true and the charity of Chalcedon borders on heroic for tolerating it. He does that in the hope that something that Bosco finds here may reach his pea of a heart and grow. God bless. Ginnyfree
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Rob said:
I fully agree with you about the charity of Chalcedon.
However I do not hear hatred of anyone in Bosco’s comments. I believe he is convinced that all he says is true. I think he has a genuine desire and care for for people that he thinks are lost and hell bound. I think that is why Chalcedon says he is fond of Bosco, while probably finding that emotion rather strange.
Bosco is using ridicule and exposure of RCC failures as a tool (unwisely in my opinion) trying to wake people up to the dangers he perceives them to be in. He may be constantly challenging each Catholic perspective for all and sundry who may visit AATWT at any time, rather than just drive the rest of us crazy.
Wrong intention would be diabolically wicked rather than faulty perspective, or ignorance of scripture and early church fathers. Though both have their attendant dangers.
Well that’s how I see it – I am pleased to read your comments when you tell us you are praying for Bosco as I am sure others are also doing. I would say “Bless you for that Ginny” But perhaps a blessing from one considered a heretic you would not welcome so I’ll just say “Good on you gal”!
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Bosco the Great said:
maybe one day you could talk Bosco into bowing befor the same graven images you bow befor, in your roman state run cult of personality.
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chalcedon451 said:
Or, even harder, to actually engage in reasonaed argument with what is being writtem, rather than parroting the usual old guff; that really would be revolutionary.
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Rob said:
Sorry Bosco I do not understand this response to my comment as I never use images or bow to any but the Lord.
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Bosco the Great said:
The cathols in here want me to bow befor the image of the female, and in vain repeat hail Marys, and call costumed holymen father. This is what they want me to do. Well, at least they believe salvation is there and are offering it to me. I would think less of them if they didn’t try to save me.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, we don’t. We want you to come to know the fulness of the faith in the Church Christ founded. Why? Why don’t I just ban you like everyone else? because you are my brother in Christ and as such I love you and want the best for you.
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Bosco the Great said:
Same here good brother.
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Bosco the Great said:
I am grateful, but genuinely puzzled by this spirit Bosco claims to have.
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cathy said:
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ginnyfree said:
I’m going to turn up missing for a while. God gave me three gifts today and they came in the mail: 1. Gratian – The Treatise on Laws Decretum DD. 1-20 with Ordinary Gloss 2. The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Alcuin Reid, OSB with a Foreword by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and 3. The Catechism of the Council of Trent of St. Pope Pius V Yeah. I’ve got to find time to honor all this good stuff. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
BBBLllaaaahahahahahaha. Yeah, take time to learn all that. Toss that bible in the dust bin.
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Steve Brown said:
C & Rob, can’t you take all of your discussions with/about Bosco to his site? This would surely make lots of us happy.
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ginnyfree said:
Hello Steve. You cannot be serious. Have you ever gone there? It is full of perverse stuff. No sane man or woman would go there. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco the Great said:
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
Come in and find rest for your soul. Id be glad to have yall ta my house. Kick yer feet up and relax. sign in and become a member. You can see all the pretty little catholics in their natural habitat.
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Bosco the Great said:
Now that good brother Chalcedon has visited my high and lofty site, he cannot say that cathols don’t bow to the works of mens hands. In my site, you get a facefull of graven images and those who love them.
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cathy said:
Thank you for your kind invitation, Mr Great. I went to visit, expecting to see lots of references to the Lord, to holiness and to devout and Godly behaviour. What I found was lots of references to gay behaviour, especially Catholic gay behaviour.
Have you ever considered that the content of your blog reveals rather more about your personal preoccupations than is quite consistent with your professed point of view? The whole place speaks volumes – I will leave it to you to work out what it says, reminding you only that the tree is known by its fruit.
Not sharing such preoccupations I don’t think I will return. I prefer bowing to images of the Blessed Virgin than to pictures of priests kissing, but you carry on collecting them, by all means, if it makes you happy.
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Bosco the Great said:
Well, good brother Rob, I will take your council and pray about my stubbornness. I can always be a better Christian, seeing as how im the worst Christian to darken the earths doorway.
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Rob said:
OK I will join you and pray for you and myself today brother.
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