Before departing to fulfil my role as sacristan at my church, I listen to the radio, usually BBC Radio 4, which runs a programme with the imaginative title of ‘Sunday’. Last Sunday we had the former Conservative Cabinet Minister and all-round establishment grandee, Lord Patten, talking about his work advising the Vatican on its communications. I am not terribly sure that a man who presided over one of the worst-handled BBC scandals, and whose own PR could do with some help, is necessarily the man I would go to, but senior Catholics are thin on the ground in the British Establishment, and from Rome, these things may look different. Among other things he said was that he hoped we would now have a ‘listening Magisterium’ – especially in the aftermath of the Irish referendum result. My ears pricked up.
Now, it may, of course, be my natural (and hard-won) cynicism which made me think he was not advocating that the Magisterium should listen to bloggers such as Fr Z, or Fr Dwight Longenecker, or Cardinals Burke and Napier. If I have failed in charity and he was meaning that, I apologise and say splendid. But, not least in the context in which he mentioned it, I think we can be sure he was thinking about those like Cardinals Marx and Kasper and others who want to find forms of words which, in the name of ‘mercy’ and ‘pastoral reality’ will allow the Church to effectively forge a new doctrine on the subject of homosexuality, divorce and communion. Since his own voice tends in that direction, I should imagine that what Lord Patten had in mind was that the Magisterium should get with what ‘the people’ want.
Social media has been awash with statements such as ‘I am a Catholic and I believe that homosexuals have the right to be married’, and ‘no one owns the church’ and, one of my favourites, ‘the church believes in equality and love and so should support same-sex marriage’. Were there a need to evidence the utter failure of Catholic catechesis, several dossiers worth of it could be had very readily.
Quite apart from the effect of such language on those Catholics who, out of obedience to the teaching of the Church, live celibate lives in which, through prayer, they try to resist the temptations of same-sex attraction, and on those other Catholics who also try to abide by its teachings on the subject of the various sins of the flesh to which heterosexuals are prone, its proponents ignore the fact that the Church is not a democracy in which doctrine and dogma are decided by majority voting among the faithful. They do that because they do not like that fact. They want, in effect, a form of catholic congregationalism in which, they hope, they would have a decisive say.
It may well be that life-long Catholics like Lord Patten are unaware of the reality of the Established Church in England which does, indeed, follow all the lines which they are advocating that the Catholic Church should take. At least I should hope it was so, for if they are advocating these things in full knowledge of where the Anglican Church is, then they are either fools or knaves. In the last three years the Anglican Church has lost 1.7 million members. The former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, has warned that the Anglican Church is a’decade away from extinction’. And yet it is this example that the Bourbons of the spirit of Vatican II wish the Church to emulate – they have forgotten nothing and learned nothing.
As readers here will know, I have myself been criticised here for too liberal a line, and I am far from being one of those who supposes that we should turn the clock back to St Pius IX’s day. The Spirit guides the Church, and the Magisterium has to be alert to His promptings. But if we mistake the spirit of the age for the Holy Spirit, we shall find ourselves where the Anglicans are. Not, I think, the sort of ecumenism one wishes to encourage.
Carl D'Agostino said:
” But if we mistake the spirit of the age for the Holy Spirit”
Succinct characterization of the two dynamics and the difference thereof.
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Servus Fidelis said:
We live in a time in our history where ‘tolerance’ (including tolerance of sin) trumps truth and that tolerance has a way of morphing into a normalizing of sin and immoral behavior. No longer a hill to make a stand we retreat to the next hill and give the enemy the win on the last. the fruit has failed to be produced and yet we have the mistaken notion that if we just cede more territory to the enemy, Satan will abandon his attacks and once again the fruits of faith will flourish all about us. We are led, I’m afraid by those of timid hearts and no real convictions or principles. Time to throw the bums out and a get some generals willing to fight the battle. A few good saints that can’t be ignored might do the trick.
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njb4725 said:
O tempora! O mores! dixit M. Tullius Cicero…
Personally, I think the Catholic Church shall find itself in the Refiner’s fire like everyone else. The kind of Christianity that will emerge in the next 15 years or so will be a polar one: the apostates S. Paul prophesied to the Thessalonians and Timothy; the zealous and persecuted, whom we see today in places like Syria.
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Bosco the Great said:
I am always tickled pink when I hear a cathol say ” the church teaches this and that”.
Church teaching……Church teaching!
Hahahahahahahahahaha
Nobody cares. Just a bunch of hot air.
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chalcedon451 said:
Given that the Church teaches what Jesus taught, I am surprised you think it was all hot air.
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Bosco the Great said:
Jesus didn’t teach that one need to go thru Mary to get to him. Jesus didn’t teach that material things direct prayers. the list is endless of the things the CC teaches that aren’t biblical.
that’s not what I meant. I just was saying that th term “church teachings” is waved around as if that makes the CC legitimate.
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theophiletos said:
Bosco, you know better than that: several people here care what the Roman Catholic Church teaches (C451, SF, QVO, etc). That’s more than “no one.”
If most Catholic laypeople are nominal cultural Christians who don’t believe any content in Christianity, I encourage them to listen more to what their church actually teaches. Their catechism at least includes Jesus, which is more than the beer-swilling party-hearty fornicating laypeople who claim to be Catholics only because they cheer for Notre Dame (Indiana, not Paris). I think C451 far more of an ally than enemy in spreading the fame of Christ to every land.
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Bosco the Great said:
There is the complete Word of God and the plan of salvation in the KJV bible. WWhy does the CC direct people to its teaching when the bible already has it? As if the CC has a patent on the word of god. CC teaching has people on their knees befor graven images. This, no one can deny. But, I was an idolater once. All I can do is tell people the good news. jesus stands at the door and knocks.
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chalcedon451 said:
Fair enough, Bosco, but as we have discussed before, the Bible needs interpreting, and the CC traces its origin back to before there was a Bible, and, indeed, tells us what the Bible is. It seems reasonable to assume that a Church guided by the Spirit to know the Bible, is guided by it to interpret it too.
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Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Chalcedon is more of a help than Satan. hes a good brother.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank you, Bosco, much appreciated 🙂
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Eileen Shaw said:
I also heard Chris Patten on ‘Sunday’ and my spirits sank, think it only too probable that the listening Magisterium will reflect the wishes of pick and choose Catholics. ‘Truth is not determined by a majority vote’ – Joseph Ratzinger
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, I am sure that was what his lordship meant – but we shall see soon how many support that line.
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Bosco the Great said:
Im having trouble finding a born again person to invite, but I invited a very nice catholic in here.
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Bosco the Great said:
This carcass need new blood. Ive been inviting people in here.
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chalcedon451 said:
All welcome here, Bosco, as you know.
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theophiletos said:
I just re-read this essay by C. S. Lewis, which half a century ago spoke of the dangers confronting the Anglican Church by modern biblical studies. Your post’s allusion to the problems in England’s Established Church reminded me of it, and I really think Lewis should be more widely read. (I do think he went a bit soft on his audience, however; I would have used stronger words. But then, I’m much younger, more vulgar, and American.)
I’m afraid the same approach to scripture, of which Lewis complained, now dominates all Roman Catholic academics in the US, at least, so much so that I met a Roman Catholic who attended an evangelical Protestant seminary for an MA in Old Testament, because he couldn’t find any Roman Catholic professor of Old Testament who believed it was inspired. Recently I’ve heard of Eastern Orthodox Bible professors drinking deeply from the same poisoned well and putting stumbling blocks in the way of believers. Evangelicals themselves, of course, have had a long love-hate relationship with “the liberals,” insisting on reading them and refuting them, yet often giving much ground. This isn’t boasting, but acknowledging a problem we all face.
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Bosco the Great said:
Seminary teachers don’t believe one gat danged word of the bible. they are there for a paycheck. The students are there to get a job. A job doing no work. My grampa used to say……anything to keep from working.
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theophiletos said:
I think all of my seminary professors believed most of the words of the Bible. And being a pastor is one of the easiest jobs in the world to do badly, and one of the hardest to do well. I’ve been privileged to know many hard-working pastors.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed, my friend, this is a problem we all face, and in a sense is behind Jessica’s original purpose in starting this blog – to remind orthodox Christians of all hues that we have much in common – including a common enemy. Good essay by Lewis – thanks for the link.
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Bosco the Great said:
Good sister Jessica started the ball rolling. She was moved to do this.
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chalcedon451 said:
She was, indeed Bosco. You will be pleased to hear she send you her love, and that she is feeling much better. There’s still a way to go, but no sign of the cancer has reappeared.
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Carl D'Agostino said:
Have we all been invaded with the capital letter red words (in my bog they are blue)? Are we passing a virus to each other or has wordpress sold out to advertising or have they been hacked or is it just me? This has started yesterday contaminating everything and everyone with whom I have blog contact. .
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chalcedon451 said:
I haven’t seen this, Carl.
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Bosco the Great said:
say hi to good sister for me and tell her I think of her often.
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chalcedon451 said:
I will Bosco. She often asks after you.
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Bosco the Great said:
She probably wants to know how bad ive ruined her site.
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Bosco the Great said:
A listening magisterium (;-D
They put their dresses on one leg at a time. they are no different from you and me. No hotline to god. its a show …to keep the dollars flowing in.
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chalcedon451 said:
For some, no doubt, but not for all, Bosco.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank you. I thought it needed saying 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
I think it important to be able to say these things, and from a position where no one can say I have always complained about everything 😀
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Bosco the Great said:
one problem is….most sites block you from posting other sites addresses. its hard for me to invite people here.
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, it is a problem, alas, but let us hope it bears some fruit.
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Steve Brown said:
C, good post. At 33 comments, 11 of them are Bosco’s, all of them we have heard 500 times. Come on C, can’t you see!
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Bosco the Great said:
What cant C see?
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Grandpa Zeke said:
Yes, he’s beginning to regress back to the usual nonsense and blather.
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Bosco the Great said:
You don’t know what blather is. Ive invited people into this site, and there are far worster out there than me. I did ask them that they be kind to the locals.
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Grandpa Zeke said:
Isn’t it interesting that none of them have taken you up on your invitation.
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Bosco the Great said:
My guess is that they come in and look around and say “forget it”
Its got nothing but dry religion talk. No fire, no excitement, no challenge, no life. Im aware that most if not all of the folks here are elderly. But I don’t care how old I get, ill still have fight left in me.
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chalcedon451 said:
Could well be, Bosco.
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chalcedon451 said:
I am watching and noting. But this far, there is still an improvement on where we were with him.
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