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Catholic Church, Catholicism, Christianity, Jesus, love, Obedience
St Augustine, noting that Jesus says that the Good Shepherd enters through door, and that Jesus is the Door, asks how he could enter through himself? The answer is that just as he knows the Father through himself, and we know the Father through him. so he enters into the fold through himself and we enter through him. St Gregory the Great reminds us that Christ lived up to his own description of what the Good Shepherd does. He laid down his life that we might be forgiven, and he rose again so we might rise with him. Clement of Alexandria adds that he was so close to us that he assumed our flesh and so redeems that.
The hirelings are those who shepherd the sheep not because of love, but for temporal reward. These, St Augustine comments, are those of whom Paul wrote in his letter to the Philippians who look out for their own interests rather than doing the work of the Lord. These hypocrites have their reward in this world with the admiration of men, but they will have no reward in Heaven.
St Cyril of Alexandria’s Commentary on John’s Gospel points out that mankind, having yielded to its inclination to sin, wandered away from love of God, and was banished from paradise. This means we became the prey of two bitter wolves – Satan, who hates us because we are made in God’s image, and wishes to see us destroyed, and sin and death, which were born from sin. But the Good Shepherd comes between us and the wolves: he endured the Cross to break the dominion of death.
St Augustine contrasts the hireling, who, seeing the wolf at the throat of the sheep, says nothing can be done, with the real shepherd who will fight the wolf. So, for example, the false shepherd, seeing one in an adulterous relationship, says nothing, but the true shepherd censures the adulterer.
St Cyril of Alexandria explains verse 14 by commenting that Jesus is telling us he will enter into a close relationship with his sheep, and his sheep will be brought into a closer relationship with him in a manner like unto the relationship between the Father and the Son – we are God’s adopted sons. For us he suffered, for us he laid down his life. He could have chosen otherwise, but he did not – that is the testimony to his love for us.
His ‘other sheep’ are, according to Theodore of Mopsuestia, the Gentiles, but by the time we get to St Augustine, he identifies them with the Jews who have not yet converted to Christ.
St Cyril is struck by the way in which the perfect obedience of Christ draws forth the love of the Father – and comments that if we conform ourselves to the mind of Christ, we too are beloved sons by adoption. Christ willingly gave up his life, there was in him no sin, and upon him death had no hold, he could die only if it was his will. So perfect was his love, that his obedience was perfect, and through love and obedience, the fault of our first parents was mended, and the hold of sin and death broken.
All Along the Watchtower 
According to St John the evangelist and apostle we becomes God’s children by birth he says to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were BORN not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God.
The apostle Paul reminds us that we still await our future ADOPTION, which is our placing as mature sons at the resurrection of our bodies for in this hope we were saved and we wait for it with patience.
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St Cyril, like St Athanasius would disagree Rob, reading the text in the light of Our Lord’s words to Nicodemus. It is only when we are born again that we receive him and become sons; we cannot become sons by nature, because we are not of the same substance as the Trinity, hence we become sons by adoption. So their reading of St John, which is at one with the other Fathers, takes a different view.
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I was being rather obscure when alluding to the point that: “ It is only when we are born again that we receive him and become CHILDREN of God”
John chapters 1 and 3 (as well as John’s epistle which teaches that it is what id born of God that overcomes the world) explain that by receiving Him we become children of God by a birth process (spiritual regeneration) not by an adoption process.
Paul speaks of the adoption of believers ‘as sons’ in several places as another matter which finally takes place at the resurrection of the redeemed.
New birth relates to childhood and adoption to son-ship.
Biblically John and Paul’s terms are not synonymous. In Galatians the text makes it plain that Paul has in view the practice of a father adopting his ‘own child’ that is placing him in the position of a mature son with responsibilities.
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That’s fine, Rob, thanks for clearing it up. As you say, the two Apostles’ terms are not synonymous. I think we all agree that it is in being born again in Christ that we become his children.
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That is true and I think it is a point Bosco misses.
We may have different interpretations of exactly how we become born again but I think we agree that Christ judges by the heart and intention of those who wish to be His and that it involves on their part repentance towards God and faith in Jesus as Lord God and Saviour.
Interestingly yesterday I spent an hour in study with 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses. This was their third Saturday visit and they promised to call next week. Usually they will not return after one or two conversations with me.
Next week I suggested we study what it means to be born again. I do not know if you are familiar with their view of this. But they confuse John and the new-birth with Paul’s teaching on adoption. They think that new-birth takes place at the resurrection and that it only applies to the 144,000 who will form a heavenly government while all other JW’s will live on a renewed earth.
Wish me luck better still pray that I can deal with them in love and wisdom.
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Thanks Rob. As I said in a recent comment to Neo, I learn much from you, and from my son who is a Pastor in Stoke, about a tradition of which I know but little. It all helps, not least because, as you identify here, often we agree on the really important things. I am with you absolutely in what you say about how Christ judges us. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb, there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which we can be saved, and we do nothing, and can do nothing, to merit that Grace. It is mind-blowing that He died for a sinner like me, but then I think all who encounter Him think that!
Yes, I had come across the JW misinterpretation, and you accurately diagnose its origin. I wish you the best of luck, and will pray for your success in your dialogue.
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Ok good brother Chalcedon I re read good brother Robs comments. I read them befor you asked me to. I didn’t comment on thembecause hes attempting to bring forth the idea of born again. Even though he admits he doesn’t understand it, at least hes broaching the subject. I didn’t want to get in the way.
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If you read what he says, and what I say, you will see we agree.
Your man-made idea, that you, as a sheep, know who else is saved, is just that – unscriptural, found nowhere in the Bible, and a grave error. You have admitted that it is not in Scripture. Admit it is an error.
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Dear Bosco, I have never said I do not understand being Born Again (in fact I preach it) if you think I have this makes it clear to me that you misunderstand what others write. This may explain some of the lack of progress made in your discussion with us here.
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We may have different interpretations of exactly how we become born again ”
Doesn’t that mean you don’t understand it? The born again can tell you how it happens. Theres no mistaking it.
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We are born again according to John 1:12-13 by receiving Christ. The new birth is then effected by the action of the Holy Spirit John 3, and we become children of God. Prior to this we are dead in sin Eph. 2. But through the new birth we become alive to God.
Now that must means we must receive Christ as who he really is, we must receive Him as our Lord, our God and our saviour.
Now how do we receive Him? We cannot invite him into our home physically and offer Him a cup of tea. We receive Him as an act of our will by repenting of sin, having faith in Him as our saviour and making a commitment to follow Him as our Lord. All this is an inward matter of the subjection of our will towards Him and a desire to be His disciple.
Catholics believe new birth happens automatically through baptism, even at the baptism of a baby that cannot make its own personal repentance or commitment of faith towards Christ.
I disagree with this interpretation of Jn. 3.
The Catholic has several replies (so do others that baptise babies) but they all hold that the individual needs to personally confirm their faith and commitment as Christians themselves when they reach an age of reason and further that they receive Christ when they take the bread and the wine in a true act of faith and trust in Christ.
So the point I made was there are different interpretations (not all pf which I agree with); nevertheless when a person’s intention is to submit to Christ and receive and confess Him as their Lord however they go about it, then they are born again.
Now there may be many who progress through religious services or rites for a whole variety of reasons without repentance towards God or personal faith in Christ. My understanding and I think all would agree here is that such religion would be of no effect. These are not the type of people we are encountering here at AATWT.
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Correct, Rob. I am not sure that Catholics would use the language of ‘new birth’ about the baptism of an infant, we would rather say that the child becomes a member of the Church, but that membership is, if you like, confirmed (or not) by their choice when they can make one.
I concur, as I think all here would, with the notion that people can, and do, go to religious services for all sorts of reasons which may have nothing to do with repentance of their sins and newness of life, but for me, as I think for other Catholics here, the main purpose is who we meet at the Eucharistic Feast. When I take the bread and wine, I know I am taking his body and his blood; the how and details are beyond explanation – as is the feeling after reception – when I am lost to the world and it is lost to me and I am one with him. It seems to me a foretaste of what is to come – and that is so marvellous that I simply want everyone to know it 🙂
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Please check up the Catholic view on whether baptism of an infant effects new birth. My understanding is that such is the Catholic interpretation of Jn. 3:5 along with the idea that many hold that baptism deals with ‘original sin’. Also Servus just commented that he was born again through water and the Spirit in his baptism. This is also what my wife was taught in her upbringing in Anglo Catholicism – that through baptism she was born again and made a member of the church.
My concern is that this can tend towards a false security in those who take the idea on board and remain uninstructed in the need to confirm their faith as you indicated. As you no doubt realise our practice is exclusively ‘believers baptism’ following a personal profession of faith and commitment to Christ, as I assume is so for your son. However I recognise that the later confirmation of faith and commitment by one baptised as an infant serves as an effective transaction with the Lord.
When you and others here approach Christ in sincerity and a worthy manner at communion I have no doubt that you meet Him and receive Him. For any to claim that you do not would not be a charge against you so much but to do so would be to charge Christ with unfaithfulness to His promise to be with us when we gather and remember Him.
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I will check, Rob.
I credit my baptism with providing me with the Grace to defy a Godless upbringing and be receptive to God’s promptings, and may well be reading that back, so to say. I was not confirmed until my early twenties, but have never doubted God’s existence – even though for most of my early life I had no way of accessing him.
It is because I don’t doubt what Bosco says about himself that I have never banned him; I just wish he would not insist that the Spirit allows him to say who is, and is not, a believer.
God bless.
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Yes I agree although it is clear in some cases that an individual is not a believer I do not think anyone can say definitively who is or who is not born again as Bosco does. To do so can cause much distress to sensitive or unstable individuals who are nevertheless seeking to follow the Lord.
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Indeed. In some cases, and I have known a couple, being told to ‘knock’ when that is what the individual has been doing, can be deeply discouraging, and even turn someone aside.
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Although in the gospel Jesus admonishes us to knock and it will be opened in Revelation it is Jesus doing the knocking and ours is the task to respond and open the door to our lives. There is in this case first the need to hear the knocking that is to be aware of Christ love and longing for us to respond to Him and how shall they hear this unless the gospel is preached clearly.
To other it may be appropriate just to say ‘follow’ and in time the fruit of a new life will show itself. We vary emotionally and so our ‘felt’ experience of Christ will vary also.
If the individual is unsure of this gospel message they will be unsure of Christ response and may feel their prayers are going unheard.
I have been privileged to lead not a few into an awareness of Christ presence. For some this has not been immediate or easy and individuals have had such concerns you mention. By gaining an understanding of what hindered their faith be it unbelief/doubt, shame or some such thing and offering assurance of Christ love from the scriptures I have found that none who sought the Lord have gone away empty or disappointed.
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Excellent, Rob – and I am unsurprised at you success – you are sensitive to how God works.
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Rob, forgive me for sending the following from the CCC.
First we consider the connection of the Baptism of Christ, the Church at Pentecost, and the blood and water issuing from the side of Christ as part of the totality of this Mystery and initiation in the Church. A partial answer just won’t cut it as you are asking questions that deserve a broader answer. So let the following PDF be a bit of background to what C might write.
Click to access baptism-from-the-ccc1.pdf
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Rob, would this help from the CCC?
Click to access baptism-from-the-ccc1.pdf
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Yes that is exactly as I understood Catholic teaching C seemed unsure that the Catholic Church held that baptism effected the new birth. I hope he also picks up this link. Thanks
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You’re welcome Rob.
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But does CCC 1231 say what you say Rob! My reading is it is closer to my own, no doubt imperfect, understanding.
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As I read it 1231 is a qualifying statement of procedure and the more general theological significance of baptism is contained in statements 1213 and 1215, I have added emphasis with capitals.
1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), 4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and REBORN as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”5
1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and ACTUALLY BRINGS ABOUT THE BIRTH of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”7
I particularly liked the 1229 summary it is the pattern that we also follow.
1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion
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Rob, from the huge Companion to the CCC there is additional information. This paragraph from the Document Ad Gentes Divinitus may have some bearing on some of your understanding as well:
“Then, having been delivered from the powers of darkness through the sacraments of Christian initiation (cf. Col. 1:13) and having died, been buried, and risen with Christ (cf. Rom. 6:4-11; Col. 2:12-13; 1 Pet. 3:21-22; Mk. 16:16), they receive the Spirit of adoption of children (cf. 1 Th. 3:5-7; Acts 8:14-17) and celebrate with the whole people of God the memorial of God the memorial of the Lord’s death and resurrection.”
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I would also agree fully with that statement it is entirely Biblical in it sense being based primarily on Rom. 6 and Galatians 4. Although the terminology is slightly out of line with Biblical statements.
It is incorrect to say either that the redeemed are born again as sons of God or that they are adopted as children of God. The concept is one of maturing towards son-ship through cooperation with the Spirit. So scripture is consistent. Through new birth the redeemed become children of God and through adoption they are placed as sons. The word adoption meaning son placing.
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Seems like counting angels on the head of a pin to me Rob. My understanding is rather ordinary I admit. If I adopt someone I have made them my child; both indistinguishable in significance at the point of adoption or becoming my child.. Their maturity is expected and their obedience then as a member of the family. An adopted child may lose favor but he will always be one whom God regarded as His . . . a great joy if their soul matures in faith and wins the inheritance that was meant for Him and a great grief and dishonor for one to squander such a precious gift and throw it away . . . basically the prodigal son who, in this case, does not return.
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Agreed on that summary and yes the theory is wonderful, would that we might attain to it.
However Paul in Galatians 4 does not have in mind the adoption of a child which was not one’s own but the adoption (son placing) of child by its father. The context of Galatians 4 is not complicated it’s quite straight forward and follows ancient practice. Paul explains that the child, when a child, is under tutors but when the child reaches maturity, at the time set by the father the child is adopted, receives his son placing. The apostle Paul (not me) says that this is effected fully at the resurrection of the redeemed from which time they will play the role appointed to them in the administration of the age to come.
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I suppose that Galatians is referring to what we do with catechesis for those children who had received Baptism but had not matured in their faith to full communion with the Church by Confirmation and Reception of Communion. And with Paul, I would simply think that he is speaking of one whom did not squander the gift of adoption . . . and therefore, in the hereafter we will truly be sons and daughters of God and sharers in the divine life for eternity. Just a quick thought on your thought . . . but I have no idea how an Aquinas or our Popes might have answered.
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“but I have no idea how an Aquinas or our Popes might have answered”.
Nor I, but it would be interesting to find some commentary from them or some ancient writers on this section of Paul’s teaching. I’m sure my understanding of adoption is not original to the source that introduced me to it. When next I have opportunity I will ask him for his sources on the subject.
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That would be most helpful Rob, as there is so much to look through after 2000 years of archiving our teachings it always helps to limit the searches. At this point I wouldn’t know exactly what to put in the search engine that would give a small concise number of documents without pulling volumes of stuff that has nothing to do with it. I’ll still sniff around a bit and see if something pops up.
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Rob, this is helpful I think. This is the commentary for Galatians 4:1-7 from the Ignatius Study Bible. This would have been researched and perhaps shows how a Catholic reads it.
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Paul reads the history of Israel as the story of a minor who has grown to maturity and is ready to receive his inheritance. During the Exodus, Israel was a rebellious son (Ex. 4:22) whom Yahweh placed under the guardianship of the Mosaic Law (Gal. 3:24) and the servile discipline of the covenant curses (3:13). The coming of Christ marks the appointed time when the curses and ceremonies of the Mosaic Law are finally set aside and Israel can receive the full inheritance of sonship through the Spirit (Rom 8:14-15); CCC 1972).
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Yes I have been looking up some commentaries and all that you supplied from the Ignatius Study Bible is in line with what I have just read. Galatians is obviously related to our new covenant position as opposed to that of the Old covenant of Law where Paul likens the former position to the son of the bondwoman or the son of slavery.
Similarly in Romans 8:15 he states:
“You did not receive the spirit of slavery … but you received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father”
The outpouring of the Spirit marks an advance in salvation history. However Paul goes on to say that while we currently possess the ‘spirit of adoption’ we are still awaiting the actual adoption as sons.
“not only the creation but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly AS WE WAIT for the adoption as sons (i.e. at) the resurrection of our bodies. Rom. 8:23
All I’m saying is that new birth and reception of the first fruits of the spirit are things available now but the adoption as sons is a future event.
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The first fruits it appears is the divine virtue of hope and the prayer that Jesus put on our lips crying Abba, Father, who art in heaven. But it is not realized until we have endured the sufferings of this life which molds us into the likeness of Christ. The actual adoption at our death far outweighs any suffering and misery we experience while we await with divine hope the promises of Christ upon our journey through death into life.
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Exactly the actual event of adoption follows our temporal testing and the suffering of this life, it we dare call what we are passing through as suffering in comparison with the experience of many of our brothers these days. Our adoption is part our future salvation that has yet to be experienced.
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Indeed it is a mystery as to the amount of suffering each is sent in this life. I suppose we are given what we have been given the grace to endure. If that is the metric, I certainly haven’t harvested much grace thus far; for God has been very merciful to me. If suffering is to be counted as gain, I’m afraid that I haven’t gained much at this point in my life.
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Also, among mystics, they might say that it is like being betrothed and the suffering and yearning of the soul for consumption which does not happen until we have endured the dark nights of the senses and the dark nights of the soul. For one that is betrothed the waiting can feel like agony especially if one is deprived of all contact and consolation from their lover.
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That was supposed to say “CONSUMMATION” rather than “CONSUMPTION”. My spelling checker didn’t like the word or I spelled it wrong when typing.
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That’s no problem for me as being dyslexic I tend to read what things are supposed to be and do not notice the spelling errors. Many afflictions have their advantages.
I think I have mentioned to you previously that I have experienced a long period without any sense of the Lord’s presence except when I minister to others and then I often observe His grace working in them.
The other most notable suffering I have experience is of betrayal by those I have sought to work with.
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Aridity in the spiritual life is a gift but it is one of the harder ones to deal with. You seem to be doing things right which is to continue on with your prayers and your evangelization. You’re not alone in such feelings of darkness in the faith but He gives you what you can bear and what is best for your spiritual growth. 🙂
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Now what would be the use of being born again and be all alone and cant tell another fellow pilgrim. The NT says”forbid not the gathering of the saints” Now how would they know who the other saints are? Theres no explaining it. one has to be born again, like jesus said. he wasn’t joking.
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You clearly can’t believe what the Bible says and have to make up your own version. The Bible is quite clear, and what it describes is not what you describe.
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Rob, lower in the comments you said, as you were agreeing with C concerning Bosco: ‘As you have said Bosco viewpoint is that of others and addressing it here is of some value.’ Well, if you agree with C then you may want to consider helping C & Servus out. These guys have spent almost 3 years trying to no avail. Maybe you, Ginnyfree, & orthodoxgirl99 could break through to him. C, being across the pond goes to bed at 5 or 6pm our time, maybe you could start with Bosco then. But, before you do, let me ask you a question. Would you let Bosco into your house? He has convinced me that he is rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. I’m not talking about the 1st, 5th, or 25th time. I’m talking about the 500th time that he shows up and wants to occupy your, your families, and your congregations precious time with the same old crap. The same hatred. Would you? If you would, please go to it. I challenge you to use all your God given talents for 50 days. Then we will see if the answer changes.
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Hi Steve,
I agree with C that Bosco is wrong when he claims to definitively know who is ‘saved’ and who is not. I consider that he is wrong when he thinks that all Catholics are unsaved.
He attacks what he believes to be evil in a manner which is offensive and will never gain him a hearing. However I think he is sincere in his motive for being here which is to bring salvation to those he considers to be lost in mere religion.
Further he seems to consider that all those who think a Catholic is saved have themselves demonstrated that they are not saved by doing so. This was his stance with Geoffrey who posted here often and also with me. I think the greatest hope for a moderation of Bosco’s views would be for him to interact with someone with some sense that he believes to be saved.
I have my own concerns about Catholicism if this were not so I would be a member of the RCC. In confronting Bosco which I have at times I would need to express my concerns on matters that he has gone overboard on. However I have not come here for the purpose of conflict or argument with Catholics or Orthodox people here whom I consider to be attempting, as am I, to faithfully follow our Lord and whom I consider to be my brethren in a common faith.
I will give serious consideration to how I may be able to dialog with Bosco valuably
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I’m not sure I even want to try. He is not interested in learning – this kind of personality finds its fun in being disruptive, attention seeking and confrontational towards others. The only way to approach it is to not interact. The moment you react/respond you continue to ‘play the game’ which is exactly what the other person wants. I have seen this kind of behaviour before…it’s all about me, me meeeee and being a mischief-maker. Debate away all you like. It will achieve nothing as your words will fall into an vacuum.
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Well, thus far it would be hard to deny that 🙂
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Good post, C. The more I hear of Theodore of Mopsuestia, the more I like him. “You almost persuade me,,,” to get a copy of his writings.
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He’s a bit suspect on the natures of Christ, although I have a recent volume which says he was maligned. But then they say that about Arius too 🙂
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How prophetic our dear Saint Augustine was . . . “the false shepherd, seeing one in an adulterous relationship, says nothing, but the true shepherd censures the adulterer.” And this could be said of numerous other sins which are today ignored by the hirelings. Let us pray for the defeat of these hirelings at the upcoming synod by the true shepherds of the flock . . . willing to give their lives for their sheep.
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Yes, that was interesting – and as you say, prophetic.
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This is a good post by Msgr. Pope. I also made two comments way down at the bottom. You will be happy at his response.
http://blog.adw.org/2015/04/admonish-the-sinner-a-reflection-on-the-first-spiritual-work-of-mercy/
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Excellent article Steve as was your comment and a wonderful reply from the good Msgr. Kudos to you and him.
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Thanks. I was a little disappointed that he only sent it to 300 of his closes priest friends. 🙂
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Yeah . . . send it to every priest in the US for goodness sake. 🙂
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300 s a good start.
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Indeed so. He probably didn’t ave the email addresses to all the rest of them anyhow.
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I don’t think Jesus said that the Good Shepherd enters the door. These old catholic you are fond of quoting mislead you.
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Try Jn 10:2 – the Church Fathers knew their scriptures, and what they meant – which puts them two up on you.
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But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out
Ah yes, that’s why I said I didn’t think jesus said that, but I wasn’t sure. Thanks, for correcting me. Jesus is the door. let me look at that some more.
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A simple, “I was wrong and the old cathols were right” would have done.
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And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
While correcting me, it brought up Jesus talking about him being the Door. And about his sheep know his voice and another they will not follow. This is also my message, yet I am roundly condemned for it.
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And where does it say what you say, which is that the sheep know the other sheep? It doesn’t, it says they know his voice. I know his voice. That you can’t see that is, frankly, the beginning and the end of your problems. Nowhere does Jesus say the nonsense you keep saying he says.
My challenge is that you show where Jesus says that his sheep know each other. if you can’t support that, then you should admit to writing nonsense.
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If a sheep is in a group of sheep, that sheep can see who is all around him.
may I ask, do you know any people personally that say the same things I do?
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That is not what Jesus says. You keep saying you know who speaks with the voice of Jesus. I have challenged you to provide Biblical evidence. You keep messing about with nonsense like this because you have no such evidence.
I say it is nonsense because no Christian I know agrees with this non-Biblical teaching you have invented.
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have you met anyone who talks like me? even on the street, or workplace or thru a friend?
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No.
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Hmmm. Ill pray he send you one.
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He did it long ago Bosco, which is why I understand Scripture. I will pray he sends you the real Holy Spirit so you can understand Scripture.
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If someone quotes the bible, is it the person who is correct or the bible?
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You have not quoted the Bible, you have quoted yourself and pretended it is the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible say what you say, which is that the individual sheep can recognise whether another sheep is Christ’s. Only Christ can do that. You are not Christ. So, either you blaspheme, pretending to a power only Christ has; or you misread the Bible; or you misunderstand it. Which of the three is it Bosco?
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After I was saved, I was led to a whole gtoup of other saved, and we were all of like mind. people from all walks of life. I was a wacked out LSD taking weed smoking rock guitarist sitting next to a straight upstanding businessman, and we were one in the same. We don’t even have to say anything to each other. We knew why we were in the same room.
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None of which is taught by Scripture. As I keep telling you, you are in some kind of cult. Now, either find Biblical warrant for the things you preach, or stop preaching man-made guff.
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C, this is the cult—a wacked out LSD taking weed smoking rock guitarist. Explains a lot.
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Very revealing. There is some method in my madness 🙂
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It is wise not consider some of the things Bosco says as being representative of the people he meets with as if they were ‘some kind of cult’. While on a preaching engagement in California I attended a church in the Calvary Chapel movement it was a standard evangelical church in the Baptist tradition.
At that time I was preaching for six week in a number of Assemblies of God Pentecostal churches. I had got to know a presbyter for the region of Modesto (Central California). He was an elderly humble man, still at the church he had begun while a young man and grown the congregation to over 3,000.
He said he had a problem with a particular church member and asked if I would counsel him. The problem was the man was acting in a more extreme manner than Bosco towards the Roman Catholic Church. The point is obvious the one person was not representative of the church or its ministers.
So I met the man and we had some long discussions but without what I thought was a successful conclusion. You see the man was a former Roman Catholic (at least in name). He was antagonistic towards the RCC which he blamed for never having introduced him to the reality of Jesus Christ. As with Bosco he assumed therefore that there were no others in Catholicism that had found Christ in his former church either.
He had taken upon himself the responsibility to warn all he could about Catholicism as he saw it – his intention being to bring them to a personal commitment to Christ. Very noble, but mistakenly under the illusion that none in his former church knew Christ as he had now come to trust him for salvation.
As you have said Bosco viewpoint is that of others and addressing it here is of some value.
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Well said, Rob. It is hard to know quite why Bosco has the animus against the RCC he evinces. But I will not yield to calls to ban him for the reasons you give.
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Ive been chased out of a Jehovas temple and a Mormon temple. I mean chased out. Jesus had nothing to do with religions either. They cant save you. their rituals make people think they are doing god a service, when they aren’t.My people go down to destruction every day when they die expecting that their affiliation with their religion has earned them a place in the kingdom. I was raised Methodist/Baptist. I was never asked if I wanted to meet Jesus. I don’t single out the CC. its just one of a billion religions, which are all equally worthless.
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No one says ritual can save you. Why must you make things up?
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I was unsaved once upon a time. Everyone is born unsaved. Im lucky, not arrogant.
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Anyone who claims he can tell who is saved is arrogant. The Bible tells us only God knows who is saved. You are not God, yet you claim to know what only he can know; that is arrogance squared.
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I think you might have a point. I don’t know exactly where it says the sheep know each other.You don’t accept that the sheep know his voice. But how did Paul know who the saints were? You assume the saints are in the dark. Try becoming a saint. Don’t be on the outside looking in
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I accept, and always have (reread my words) that the sheep know Jesus’ words. As one of his flock, I know his words. Paul knew those who followed the tradition he had taught the by words and in writing – 2 Thess.2:15. Neither Jesus, Paul, nor any Apostle taught what you preach. All of them taught what I follow – but then I not not need to explain away 2 Thess 2:15, because I follow it. What do you do?
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Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I try to stand fast to the traditions. The traditions being charity and meekness and longsuffering and the like.
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Again, you misunderstand what Paul writes. The traditions are what Paul writes in his letters, and the Gospels and the teaching of the Apostles. None of which you appear to understand.
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One can know the words on paper. But his voice is his own voice. You can get a program that read words, but that isn’t the voice of the Shepherd. The sheep know the voice, they don’t care about words on paper or another saying follow me. Anybody can say follow me, but the sheep know when the Shepherd says follow me. Does that help?
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I have never denied we know His voice. I have contested your man-made idea that you, as a sheep, can tell whether I am one of his sheep or not. You have not provided any Biblical evidence for that. Do you now admit there is none and withdraw the teaching?
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I cant unknow Jesus. I don’t make a point of reminding people that they don’t know Jesus personally. I try to introduce Him to them. Its up to the individual to open the door. no one is born knowing him.
yes, I can tell if someone doesn’t know him personally.
Ill give you an example. When I stumble into the Calvary over here, there are about 100 people milling about befor and after the sermon. there are a few born again. I know a few of them and the ones I know who go regularly know some of the other ones. And always, the pastor asks if someone want to know Him also, because many there aren’t saved, but they are there for a reason. Saved folks bring their unsaved friends. Its no joke. its their eternal souls we are talking about.
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No one is asking you to ‘unknow Jesus’. What I am asking you to do is to be less arrogant. You have decided to adopt the unbiblical teaching that you, as a sheep, know who else can hear the shepherd. This is what you should abandon, because Jesus never taught it.
To tell anyone else they do not know Jesus because you, Bosco, say they don’t, is what is insulting. You claim to a power – that of knowing who else is saved, which Jesus never said anything about.
It is this, rather sad and arrogant belief, non-Biblical, to which people object. I knew Christ before you were born.
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if you say so good brother.
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I do.
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You say we cant do what Jesus did, but Jesus said we will do greater things that he did. What is greater than a man being born again. Not by the power of that man, but the power of god. My new spirit came down from heaven and saw Christ and knows him. Its weird. Hard to explain. But others who had it happen know.
The apostles weren’t born again because they walked with Jesus. Mary wasn’t either. they had to wait on it. They were together in some room when it fell on them. then they had the power to go and preach. Its real and jesus said its real.
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We are not born again by our our own will, so how can that be something greater than what Jesus did? You are not making sense.
The Spirit comes in many ways Bosco, your mistake is to confine the Spirit to one way and misread Scripture.
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There are others like me. But we don’t have a flag or coat of arms or a palace or costumes.The spirit has to lead one to you.
I only know of one born again TV preacher. Gene Scott.
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All of which is interesting – but not what Scripture says. Show me in Scripture where someone gets ‘saved’ as you were and is led to only one other ‘saved’ person. I can save you the trouble, because there is no such example.
This, Bosco, is what worries me. You quote Scripture, but do not act as it shows us we act when we receive the Spirit.
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Theres more than one out there. And somehow they are led to others. I didn’t know there were others. I didn’t even know what saved was. My mother made me go to a meeting, and there I found others and from there I met some in my area. he has his was of doing things.
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None of which is in the Bible. Your man-made ideas are fine, but if they lead you to think you know what only Jesus knows – that is who is saved – then they lead you to an arrogant faith in yourself. Mankind will always think it can know what only God knows – abandon such bad ideas and you will be fine.
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Too late. I know a few saved and have led a few others to Christ. I cant unknow them.
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No one asks you to. All I am asking is you believe what Scripture says. Why is that so hard for you?
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