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The response to yesterday’s post was, even by the standards of the usual comments here, phenomenal; I feel immensely blessed by you all – so thank you, both those who commented and those who just read and pondered.
The questions which arose about ‘essentials’ and ‘incidentals’ (my terms, and not perhaps the best ones, but let us stay with them for now) produced so many searching questions and incisive answers that it seems sensible to sat with them for a while and see if between us, we can make anything of them together; I know by myself I would get lost, but think with the guidance we are providing for each other, that won’t happen. Where will it lead? I honestly don’t know, but it seems good to be led.
The context, of course, was my little rallying cry that if Christians don’t hang together, we will probably hang separately, given the foes we face. That was not, let me emphasis, especially for those not familiar with earlier posts on the importance of orthodoxy, a plea for some sort of syncretism. This post, I hope, says something of where these thoughts came from, and this one, something about my attitude towards what divides us.
My friend crossingthebosphorus spoke powerfully from that Orthodox tradition he so admires, and writes about so well, when he articulated the difficulties thus:
I was thinking generally of such essential things as the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist, and different theological perceptions. I don’t consider these to be merely “incidental.” So then the question becomes where do we draw the line at essential and incidental? And how far are we willing to toss aside certain beliefs and practices in the interest of unity? At what price are willing to accept such unity?
Anyone familiar with Orthodox Apologetics will recognise the authentic sound of that tradition. A good set of comments from Servus Fidelis which spoke in the authentic voice of the Catholic tradition, about preserving different Liturgical tradition as long as there is unity on the position of the Pope and the Creed, drew forth an excellent response to the effect that for all the problems between these two great historic Churches, there were even larger hurdles in the way of unity with so many Protestant churches.
In many ways, this encapsulated and said in short compass what the Catholic Congregation for the Defence of the Faith document Dominus Iesus said at greater length and in more detail back in 2000.
Between them, Servus Fidelis, like kathleen came to focus on ‘the deposit of the Faith’, with the former adding something which produced great responses:
it is certainly possible to live our individual lives in such a way to invite others to join us and experience the joy we share in Christ Jesus.
And it was the lovely Tom Mcewen, who went from there and linked it in a most helpful way back to ‘essentials’:
For me the essentials are the Eucharist because it gives us grace and tears to make us human.
2. the two commandments that Christ has given us, which is core of what we seek if we are to follow Christ and do God’s will.
3. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked,….heal those of a broken spirit. Mt 25:35
Those are my essentials.
His marvellous comment: ‘ I do what Christ calls for and for the rest is beyond my pay grade’ is a good place to rest for now.
But it seems that the Eucharist, which has been a sign of divisions, is also a common focus, and that a common service to Christ, are parts of what is ‘essential’.
I’d love your views, and try to take them into the next few posts if there is interest.
Tom Mcewen said:
You can know a person by the friends he has. But you can know more of his internal compass by the enemies he has.
You were mentioned in the Telegraph as seeking and changing by your enemies, those were not the words they used. If those who hate God hate you, then you are on the right path. May we all here follow in your footsteps. Psalm 18:34
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you Tom, thank you very much. I long ago ceased to worry about those mean and barren spirits on the Thompson blog – this is a home where all who love God can find a place for discussion and love 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
I. like you, believe time is short. Nor am I looking for any sort of syncretism, I grew up in a church (UCC) that attempted to yoke four very different traditions, it was not a happy marriage. What is needed is tolerance, understanding, and respect. You know, like we find here.
We have real enemies, they don’t care about our “incidentals, and essentials”, they just want us gone. I find that the more I learn of our various traditions, the more honored I am to be among you, and your ally and friend.
I think the proper model here might be the traditional alliance between the US and UK, wonderful friends who are willing to throw themselves in front of a train for each other, not the same but, with very deep common roots.
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JessicaHof said:
May it be so my friend. It will be interesting to see whether even here we can find enough common ground 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
From what I see here, it’s mostly about respect. If we can respect each other (and our traditions) I see no reason we can’t. here certainly, and in the world, maybe 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
It is a good place to start, that’s for sure 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
I think so, and part of why I like that political comparison is it reminds us that old enemies become close friends, even if different. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Indeed – but it required inspired statesmanship – and I hope we may find it yet 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
It did in the last stages in the 20th century but, thing were moving that way as early as the 1830s when we proclaimed the the Monroe doctrine knowing full well that it would be enforced by the Royal Navy. The community of interest, great trading nations, was there. FDR and WSC mostly codified what had existed for a century. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
That makes it sound more hopeful 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
It does, indeed. 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
I think neenergyobserver is spot on as to what the Church is trying to accomplish with ecumenism. We work together on things we agree and can make solid headway on: religious freedom, abortion and the like.
Though Christianity appears to be on the run, she has appeared this way in the past and made a marvelous recovery: the battle of Lapanto, Bernard of Clairvaux, Leo the Great all come to mind. God has a marvelous way of sparing His Church. As to how He shall do it this time, I have no clue. But to be sure, He will win out in the end.
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, you are right to remind us of that my friend 🙂
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Tom Mcewen said:
Servusfidelis – thought you may like this link. sorry about the sacking of Constantinople, but you know heaven tomorrow and gold today.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1539/both_lungs.aspx
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servusfidelis said:
Thanks Tom, it was a great piece. When I converted to Roman Catholicism, I was considering the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches because of their lack of ‘in-fighting’ and meditative ways: as John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila were a big part of my conversion. However, their churches are few and far between in our country and my mentor priests: a couple of old priests at the verge of retirement took me under their wings and gave me the backbone to stay and fight the good fight. I hope that I can live up to their expectations. Thanks again.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
So far today we have one vote for “Respect.” another for “inspired statesmanship ” and a third for ” God sparing his Church.”
These are all great sentiments and you should feel good having brought them to the fore.
I’m not going to deal with the God comment because it’s far above my pay grade. As individuals the words we use are backed by our idiosyncratic experience we give them. So to have agreement as to what specific steps we could take we need to know in terms we can all understand what is meant by “respect” and “inspired statesmanship,” otherwise there’ll be no “Common Ground.”
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, you are guiding us well David 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
David, I think we get too caught up in trying to assimilate the two fold war which we fight as Christians: the internal sanctification and the battle with the sinfulness of the world. It seems good advice, at least from my limited perspective, that we confuse the two and brandish about trying to do everything at the same time. Like a good general, we should plan our individual strategies to do things in an orderly fashion rather than flailing about trying to do everything at once. A military man must go to boot camp first and classes to study how to take orders, find weaknesses in the enemy and devise plans to make our fight not one of chaos but ordered by a cohesive response. It seems to me that we spend far less time in boot camp and battle planning before setting out to right the world of all its ills.
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JessicaHof said:
True, that my friend, all too true. 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
No quarrel there.
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servusfidelis said:
A British expression I’m afraid us colonists are unfamiliar with anymore.
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servusfidelis said:
That cleared it up David. Thank you. I’ve enjoyed all of you immensely.
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servusfidelis said:
Forgot to comment to David about ‘respect’ and ‘common ground’. I’m a simple man who has simplistic answers from my idiosyncratic experience as David so aptly puts it. I give the same answer to both in the end: Respect is not something we personally earned but derived from our unearned dignity that God gave each individual when he made us in the ‘image and likeness of God’. As to ‘common ground’ it is a realization of the above and leads us to use this universal attribute to join in causes that degrade the human person and his dignity and respect. We feed the poor, we end abortion, we don’t lie to one another, we act as people worthy of this unmerited gift. Can we join together without taking into account all the red herrings that society, politics and ideologies cram us into? I think that is challenge, not only in personal spirituality but in coming together to face our common enemy which is division, concupiscience and the rest of the factors that the secular world uses to divide and conquer.
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JessicaHof said:
My friend, your gift for putting it in just the right words is brilliant 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Jess, you are much too kind. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Not at all my friend – you have a real gift for teaching – and between you, you really are clearing the pathways 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
She is indeed very kind but, in this instance she is a simple truth teller.
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JessicaHof said:
True, that my friend. I am very lucky to have such people posting here – it is a sheer pleasure to read what you all write – thank you, all of you. 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
You’re going to make me blush. It’s very unflattering for an old fellow to blush. 😉
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neenergyobserver said:
I know it is but, then again, she keeps doing that to me as well. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Bless you both, you both, like others here, keep posting such good things – it is a joy, a sheer joy, to be part of this conversations between Christians – so utterly uplifting 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
See what I mean Servusfidelus. Still it’s nice when the young’uns appreciate us greybeards! 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
We have so much to learn, and in our society we hardly know it. I learn so much from you all, and am so grateful 🙂 xx
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neenergyobserver said:
I couldn’t agree more, Jess, and am grateful to you as well. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
It is one of the many great and totally unexpected joys of this place – but it really is all of you who make it what it is 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
For my small part, Thank you. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Perhaps all that is needed my friend, is for us all to play our small part with love and respect, and of such are the beginnings of the Kingdom made?
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neenergyobserver said:
I believe that to be the case. God made us a proud fractious family but, a family none the less, who are meant to stand together against all others.
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, in Him there is neither Jew nor Gentile – we are all one in Him and His love 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
Yes, we are. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
And I am so glad of it 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
Me too 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
🙂 thank you.
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neenergyobserver said:
🙂 You are most welcome
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Thank you for describing your “model of the world.” You still haven’t fully described “respect” you’ve only related it to something else. How do you know when someone respects you? How do you know when you “respect” someone else? What do you see, hear and or feel? It’s at this level we need to start. This is our boot camp.
Remember, there are many different, “models of the world.”
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servusfidelis said:
Now David. An astute gentleman like yourself knows perfectly well when they are being disrespected. I think most people understand it if the disrespect is overt. If subtle, it is often picked up in body language or the exclusion of your ideas or suggestions to be even considered. There are so many ways to be disrespected that we could not scratch the surface I’m afraid. If we were to give a boot camp in respect, as a discipline unrelated to our coming to know and appreciate our gifts from our Creator we would be working on a sympton and not the disease. If we are astute and passionate about our religious life and prayer one learns what respect means because we see ourselves as we truly are: wretcheness itself when viewed from in the presence of Christ who is the only good. But if we are all wretched and fallen individuals, as we are, then it is a “boot camp” to overlook much of what the prejucices of society have ingrained in us. Will we be maligned individually? Absolutely, unless they have undergone the same “boot camp” in their lives, which is unlikely. Therefore, our new found humility, should we learn our lessons well, will allow us to not react as if we are offended at personal attacks or criticism but meet them as one who is worthy of such a response. When met with understanding and love, we become the most unlikely warriors of all: as Christ conquered the world through sacrificial love without any need of resorting to a mutual war of disrespect. The question for all of us is: do we believe our call to sainthood or is it just so many words.
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Lyn Leahz said:
Great article and great points! Love ya sis! I am non denominational by choice because I don’t feel that God made religion, man did. So sometimes I may not understand the Catholic stuff..hope that doesn’t upset you! LOL I did go to a Catholic school for one year many years ago..and still didn’t understand some of the stuff…isn’t that awflul? Religion comes from the root word religio, which means to tie or to bind…so, I don’t know…I just worship the Lord in any way I can! I love you so much! God bless you!!! You are always in my heart, and always praying for you. Here’s the thing..no matter what religion you would be, you have the love of our Lord burning in your heart..and that is what matters the most! Respect and love you highly! God bless!
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JessicaHof said:
Lyn, there is more of good Christian love in that than in many a sermon – bless you for it dear sister. Love of Christ will lead us if we let it 🙂
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crossingthebosporus said:
I keep checking back on the comments because even though I asked some of the questions, I don’t have any of the answers. Time for some learning.
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JessicaHof said:
For all of us my friend, for all of us, and that is part of the joy of this. I am just reading, and enjoying, your latest post 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
@servusfidelis: You evade the question.
You say that I know when I’m being disrespected…that’s mind reading.
You need to explain how you know you’re “RESPECTED.” What specifically lets you know that, using visual, auditory and or kinesthetic predicates. Because my way of knowing isn’t necessarily yours nor is it anyone else’s except yours.
Good grief based on yesterday comments we couldn’t even agree on what are essentials or incidentals. We can’t even agree on what “love” is.
If we can’t arrive at a mutual understanding of what important words mean there’s no way that progress can be made.
If you’re still not sure about this, think about the posture of both sides the American and Iraqi that lead up to Desert Storm.
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servusfidelis said:
Then David, I would have you tell me what is disrespectful to you because you are quite right: I cannot read your mind. I explained in a round about way, that I am disrespected when I am treated as less than an equal and less than a human being devoid of a spirit soul that was lovingly placed in the heart of every human being.
We can disagree all we want on love as there are many kinds of love: but the Author of Love is Love Himself. God is Love.
I’m not unsure about it David, at least from my standpoint, and the secular world’s penchant to leave God out of the mix causes a lot of hatred between cultures, religion and peoples. It is not in our ability to avoid getting swept up into such armed conflicts like Desert Storm as long as one group of people thinks that killing all infidels, especially Christians and Jews, is the way to unite us all in their version of a united world under a single God. Especially because their idea of God not the same God of Christianity. Therefore, none of us accept their God as our God and we have no other recourse than to meet them toe to toe and resist them, be converted, or eliminated. I don’t think any of us who “can’t agree on essentials and incidentals” will have any problem agreeing on survival of our selves, our families, our countries and our beliefs.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
You are very expert in being “roundabout.” When dealing with words “specificity” is de rigeur.
There you go, I was talking about love between a man and woman. You in your round about way were referring to God’s love. So unless we can agree as to what love means to each of us, we’ll just go on being, “round about.”
The Iraqi mindset is one of being,”In Time,” in the moment, US mindset is one of, “Through Time,” time as a continuum. Saddam, tried to bargain with the US as if he were in the marketplace haggling over the price of something. The US, meanwhile, saw certain signposts and as each was reached and Saddam failed to respond appropriately they moved relentlessly forward, until the command fire was given.
The meaning of your communication is the outcome you get, not necessarily the intention of the speaker. So it’s vital nay a prerequisite that we all are on the same page when it comes to understand what each of us means by say, “respect.”
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Tom Mcewen said:
I maybe wrong and for that I am sorry, but to me the word respect is a human construct. It is measure of those we love or should love and the measure of how this person follows his internal standards. But I think as a christian it is foreign to Christ’s teaching. If we are humble, then it is a stumbling block. Sorry I think respect and pride are the two sides of a coin. We are created in the image of God, If we have respect, then it must be for that image. It is a very gray area for me, I have a woman here who I see on the street who is or was a crack addict and because I do not respect her I do not love her as God asks me too. It is stumbling block, my Priest has heard my confession, and told me to pray before I go out so my mind is this image of God who is wounded. If I only serve those I respect I fail. My Priest has commanded me not to give to beggars on the bridge, because it is run by the mafia, But Who is Christ and who is not. For Mother Teresa all are Christ.
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JessicaHof said:
You ask the hard questions here. How hard it us for us to follow truly in His steps – which lead to Calvary here in earth.
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servusfidelis said:
Because as Tom alludes to we are all fallen and do not respect certain people, mostly for how they lived their lives, the laws they have broken in civil society, the meaness and hypocrisy we see in others etc. We must become like Mother Teresa as Tom above says if we are to mend the many wounds between one another.
Secular society has divided one against another and it is much like the Tower of Babel: rich against poor, men against women, culture against culture, race against race, educated agains uneducated, liberal against conservative et al.
How did God counteract the Babel syndrome: through the Penatcost. What had them understanding one another in their own tongue? It was love my friend. It is the glue of the Church and should be the glue of all human beings. That it is not, is not the issue. It is simply the answer that none of want to pursue first. Everyone else must do it first.
So without being ’roundabout’ David, what is your solution and answer specifically? You seem to think eveyone has dodged the issue and yet you have not a single word to say yourself. Let us see where we have been fooled by our individual kinesthetic thoughts. So far it appears that you have no hope, which I pray is not the case. So offer us the hope for our futures and how we shall leave this world a better place.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
” the word respect is a human construct. It is measure of those we love or should love and the measure of how this person follows his internal standards.”
Yes, you’re right. But in order for you to arrive at that opinion, you had to have had some experiences that let you know this in specific “lean” not “fat” words.
Let me give you an example: What do I notice when someone “respects” me? I notice that they’re cheerful and they smile. (OK is it a leer, a grin a or a grimace?) Cheerful and Smile are “fat” words. But if I say that I notice that his eyes are wide open, his cheeks are slightly flushed and there is an even separation of the lips so that I can see his teeth. This is my specific description in “lean” words of someone who is cheerful and has a smile. Yes, it’s “my model of the world.” Your model is different. So unless we can get below the surface structure of the word and into our various idiosyncratic meanings we will stall in our efforts.
Sorry, I give up all you wish to do is talk in circles. You’re all for dialogue and beyond but all you seem to do is talk in vagueness, the rest is waffle very erudite waffle though.
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Tom Mcewen said:
Sorry, but I am not like ordinary people, my brother is John, but all my life I have been called McEwen until I came to Prague. I am on the design of a large concrete block and my friend Elizabeth says as we walk, ”Tom, stop looking at the people you are scaring them”. Because no one has ever bothered me, I am obivious to many things, I have never noticed if someone respects me or not, My DI once said to my platoon he would like to have me with him because if all I could move was my finger tips I would be crawling toward the enemy, That I treasure. If you are physically large and powerful the world is different for you, respect is a birth right. I like people, but if someone is upset they look into my face and what they see calms them down. It sounds like a cheat but if you are large humble is easy.
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JessicaHof said:
That is a profound comment Tom – I am really grateful for what you share with us 🙂
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Tom Mcewen said:
I always have a softness in my heart for St. Peter, I believe from what he said and did that he was taller and stronger then those around him. What would be called a natural leader. His words show confidence in himself. Because he was large he thought himself better, but when the moment came his soul was false, he failed the Lord thrice. While I think of John as a smaller slighter man who was brave from the inside. St Peter reminds me the strength from the lord inside is more important then what is outside. That the Lord will forgive you and love you. St. Thomas teaches me doubt and faith. St. John teaches me loyalty and courage. Mary teaches me to be humble and perserverance in grief, Mary was steel and love and sorrow. St. Matthew was a traitor to his nation whose only friend was the Roman soldier who kept him safe as he robbed his people, Christ accepted him and used him. He tells us of what happened at the tomb, because only he knew the Romans. Judas teaches us in our pride we can not force God’s will, God’s ways are not our ways. The Pharisees teach us, who were by in large good men, the thorns of the world.
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JessicaHof said:
Tom – that’s really beautiful – thank you so much for sharing these pearls of wisdom with us. I hope others see them in the comments section 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Sorry, I forgot to add an auditory and kinesthetic components. Cheerful with a smile a pleasant voice and friendly gestures. I noticed that his voice was about medium in volume with an English rather than an American modulation and accent and an even pitch. His arms were at waist level and hands extended toward me.
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servusfidelis said:
I’m sorry, but it seems you simply complicate an already overly complicated construct which would require the help of psycholigists, body language experts and the like. Is it really necessary to paint with a single haired brush? Or is it sufficient for our conversation to use a broader stroke brush, or are you looking for us to compose a book of many 1000’s of pages to specifically put each individual’s idea of their mental construct into a barrel and pick the ones that we can all agree on. I haven’t that many years left in my life to give you what you want and besides it would only be my construct as your method would truly require every man, woman and child, to do the same. Even then, would the ones that agree be the proper ones? I think we would be creating a bigger chaos that the one we face in the real world. Principles are more easily agreed upon, though difficult to live up to. That will be my focus. Your focus may be on the minutae but I will consecrate on the basics, the foundation and have a semblance of hope and faith that may render good fruit. If not, then at the very least, it will reander good fruit for my soul. It is a win-win method in my way of thinking.
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