So often, for me, one of the most wonderful parts of running a blog are the comments from you – they are never less than thought-provoking, and sometimes they are so profound as to make me glad to have such people with whom to converse through this strange medium.
Yesterday’s post on the ‘Beauty of holiness’ touch a chord with many, and set of some fascinating comments. I was much struck with the conclusion to kathleen’s comments:
I readily agree with you that in this, our secular age in the West, we live “impoverished times as Christians”…… and it is vital we should befriend our fellow Christians to stand shoulder to shoulder in the face of so many challenges of our day, rather than bicker, insult (and worse), which is what we have been doing since the times of the Reformation until fairly recently.
All denominations of true Christians hold and believe the most important thing of all: that Jesus Christ is the Saviour, the Only begotten Son of God, Who came to redeem mankind. Nothing is more important than this.
If I were able to sum up my credo it would be in these words.
As anyone familiar with site on which kathleen makes such distinguished posts, Catholicism Pure & Simple, will know, she is a devout and knowledgeable Cradle Catholic, so her comments come with even more weight, as they are not the product of some casual ecumenist gust of emotion. They were matched by words from my dear friend NEO, who commented:
Lutherans, Catholics, and Anglicans, we have all, to a great extent anyway, thrown away the reverential awe of worship. We did this with the best of intentions, to attract new congregants but, as with so many things, we didn’t think it through. When we lower ourselves to attract people, we lower the standards of Christianity. Of what use are multitudes of half-Christianized pagans to God or church?
He added:
we stress our coffee hours, our good works (which are important and are an effect of our faith) our modernity in general. And what do we get, a coffee shop filled with do-gooders. There’s nothing wrong with any of that but, it’s not who we are, we are the Church of Jesus Christ, the Risen Lord, nothing more and nothing less. Many of our Evangelical friends understand this, why can’t we?
And that, between them, sums up the place where some of us feel that real ecumenism already exists.
We are, not one of us, responsible for what divides us; we are all responsible for perpetuating it if we ‘bicker and insult’ others.
In the end it comes back, as it always must, to what Jesus told His disciples, which is why I have part of it on the masthead of this blog:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
If we do that, then we follow Him. If we don’t, it does not matter what we say. If we do do not love one another we walk in darkness.
All Along the Watchtower 
You are a darling to recommend our blog, and to quote me, saying I am “knowledgeable”! :blush: (I truthfully don’t see myself as such; team-mates, Raven, Gertrude etc., are far more knowledgeable than I am.) All I desire is to spread the Faith as far as I am able, so that others can also come to share in Christ’s saving Love. Such joy and beauty cannot be kept to oneself.
As you yourself have experienced, the more one gives love, the more one receives, as all love comes from God, Who is never out-done in generosity.
Jess, you are doing something very special and extremely important here; you are drawing together Christians from all denominations in inspiring and profound discussions on Faith topics. We can obviously not agree on all aspects of our beliefs, but we can exchange our views, traditions and teachings in lively conversation in an atmosphere of harmony and respect, and without any anger or self-righteousness. Really, this is absolutely amazing!
Through your gentle, respectful and sensitive personality (plus with your obvious high intelligence and vivid imagination) you are achieving something that no one else has managed to…… as far as I know anyway. Every other blog site that attempts such discussions always seems to end up in cyber-type battles and fights leaving no winners…… and a very sour tasting feeling of utter futility!
Congratulations! You are a Star! 🙂
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Oh, kathleen – that is just so nice of you – what a kind thing to say. So hard to respond, as you make me tear up – but thank you so much – it makes it all worth while. You are all so lovely, and that is what really makes this a special place.
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Thank YOU Jess.
And yes, this is indeed a very “special place”…… you have made it so. 🙂
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It is so nice of you to say that. I feel that this is an oasis – and that the pilgrims here create the atmosphere I could only have dreamed of when I started this 🙂
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Amen. Engagement and dialogue is in full effect =) Pax Christi. =)
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Thank you my friend, not least for your own wonderful witness 🙂
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WHAT. SHE. SAID. 🙂
Personally, i like to look at Christianity as a family. The churches are like kids, we fight amongst ourselves, sometimes fiercely but, when an outsider shows up, we rally around the family, or at least we should, it’s a pretty high strung family.
And yes, I find Kathleen, and her co-authors as well, devout, knowledgeable, as well as kind to this half educated protestant. 🙂
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NEO,
It’s not difficult to be polite and kind to commenters of your modus operandi. 😉
And I would hardly call you a “half educated” protestant!! Doesn’t seem like that to me; the articles on your blog are good proof of the absolute contrary.
Not sure what you make of CP&S’s resident Toad though? At least he can be witty, and his constant teasing keeps us all on our toes!
Anyway, your comments to that previous lovely article of Jess’s she referred to, and the portions she has chosen to reproduce here above, are incredibly perspective and appropriate.
Besides, the ridiculous image conjured up in my mind of “a coffee shop filled with do-gooders” had me rolling around in helpless giggles. 😆
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Me too on that last 🙂
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I find little to be accomplished by ranting about our differences. If we talk rationally and with respect much is,
I find I learn much about my faith from Catholicism, and Anglicanism. For instance, Jess’s pilgrimage kind of forced me to consider Marian devotion for the first time, it has dropped almost completely from our tradition.
My education is mostly what interests me and is not always as rigorous or structured as it should be, doubt that I’ll ever fix it.
Toad left me a bit nonpulsed until I saw a couple of responses to him but he is witty, not an altogether bad thing, makes one think.
Glad you like the coffee shop remark, I giggled a bit writing it, wasn’t sure how it would translate over there though 🙂
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Eh, sorry NEO, I meant to say your comments were “PERCEPTIVE” and appropriate, (not “perspective”). Silly me!
And hey, why so unsure of the ‘coffee shop’ comment? (Don’t start me off giggling again!)
Did you perchance think we Brits have no sense of humour? 😉
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Ah, Kathleen, I saw it and read what you meant, I’m not the vocabulary police 🙂
No, I’m well aware that there’s nothing whatever wrong with the Brit sense of humor, spelling is a different matter, but I wasn’t sure you had anything comparable to what I refer to as a coffee shop. 🙂
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I can concur wholeheartedly. Such witness does more real good than a hundred conferences on ecumenism.
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And that is at least one of the points, Jess. The foot of the cross, as I have often said, is junction as well as a destination, and its not in my purview to decide which routes are valid.
I think I have more to say but I think it may be post material, let’s see if I can get it in shape.
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I’ll look forward to that possibility 🙂
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If I can’t make a post out of it, it will end up as a comment here. 🙂
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Either way, most welcome my dear friend 🙂
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It’s up, although the thrust changed considerably, still it draws heavily on you and Kathleen, for inspiration and not as much for direct quote as I thought it would.
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I’ve just been reading – and much appreciating it. You make some excellent points – not the least of which is the reminder that what was once the heartland of Christianity is now marginal territory.
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Thanks, dear friend, I was concerned with how far I wandered from the original topic.
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Not at all – it all seemed to fit well to me 🙂
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Good, that gladdens my day. 🙂
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So glad 🙂 xx
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🙂 I do hope Kathleen gets around to mine as well. 🙂
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I hope so 🙂
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I bet she will, my least favorite thing is self-promotion, even in a good cause.
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🙂 xx
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I hope that this November Christianity in America can come together this well to speak with one loud voice against so many political issues that the Church has declared intrinisically evil. I’m excited for this election and getting our nation on track for God’s presence in society. We really need this kind of coming together to keep America founded on Christian values.
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I hope, and pray, my friend that the right will prevail 🙂
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Amen, my friend.
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🙂 bed time for Jessica here – good night my friend xx
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🙂 Sleep tight my wonderful friend, no doubt that we’ll talk tomorrow. xx
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We shall indeed. Much love 🙂 xx
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Good. The love is returned. 🙂 xx
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Is this really true (as you’ve quoted from Kathleen) ?
“All denominations of true Christians hold and believe the most important thing of all: that Jesus Christ is the Saviour, the Only begotten Son of God, Who came to redeem mankind. Nothing is more important than this.”
I don’t think so. Not at all, in fact. Kathleens statement asserts, in a sort of ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy* way, that you’re only a Christian if you hold and believe that Jesus Christ is saviour who came to redeem mankind.
The Nicene Creed states (in a shortened form) that one believes in one Lord, Jesus Christ, who for our salvation came down from heaven.
‘Believing in’ is different to ‘believing that’. Very different.
There’s a Gifford Lecture online here which describes in some detail these matters:
http://www.giffordlectures.org/Browse.asp?PubID=TPBELI&Volume=0&Issue=0&ArticleID=20
Indeed at Chalcedon it was stated that the orthodox view is not that (note that ‘that’ denotes a claim as to statement of fact) in Jesus Christ God became man, but rather that in Jesus Christ man became God.
This view has tended not to be highlighted in churches in a western context for a long time, but it is very much the ‘orthodox view’ and indeed it is clearer when one talks to the Eastern Orthodox. Of course, those who like sola scriptura would claim that this is heresy, but it is the view of the church.
There’s a good lecture here which I thoroughly recommend:
http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/the-formation-of-christian-doctrine
Sometimes the video pauses part way through, so I recommend downloading the video or audio first. A lot of the better bits (it’s all good though) are towards the end.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
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Thank you Struans. I have some posts here on theosis, and will look, with pleasure, at the videos.
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I had just written a long reply to Struans when the internet went off for a few seconds and I lost it !!
No time to rewrite the whole thing now, but just to say that I shall watch those videos you mention Struans when I have time. Thank you.
However I think you are rather going off on a tandem Struans,, if I may say so. Yes, terminology is important of course – you are right – but the whole point of what I was trying to say was that our in these ominous challenging times for ALL Christians, we should hold on to what unites us rather than nit-pick.
We are being threatened by an atheistic mentality in our society – usually referred to as secular humanism – that is making it harder and harder to live our beliefs as Christians. (And this in particular applies to Catholics and High Church Anglicans). Militant Islam is another threat on the horizon that, amazingly, many appear totally unaware of. What is the point of Christians bickering and accusing each other for past misdeeds when our whole Christian life is facing far greater menaces, if not oblivion?
Jess so rightly quotes Our Blessed Lord’s words in His heartfelt desire; this is what we should have foremost in our own minds and hearts.
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You said it far better than I could kathleen – 100 per cent agreement.
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Hi Kathleen –
Please accept my apologies for my appearance to ‘have a go’ at you. I meant no such thing, yet I fully understand that my comment earlier could have been worded in a more appropriate manner. What a shame about your earlier comment that is now lost – I like interaction.
I fully understand that I may be seen to be nit-picking, but for me this is important. To a greater or lesser extent, one has to have some form of grasp of Platonism if one is to understand Christianity. Unfortunately, that is where the great mass of atheists fall down, presupposing a materialist paradigm as they commonly do.
Evangelicals have been very successful in their aims in the last tens of years (and longer!), and it is now sadly the case that the majority of people (often including evangelicals themselves) have a view of Christianity that sits well with the commonly assumed materialist outlook. That gods take the form of something that can be conceived in some way, shape or form as a construct within that outlook, and that one believes that such things either do or do not exist. And all the rest of it. Lots of arguments then proceed about a matter that actually has not very much with the Christianity that is informed about itself and its philosophy. I don’t necessarily expect that people are informed in enormous detail, but at least a grasp of the allegory of the cave, or some other way of understanding that Christianity doesn’t sit within a materialist outlook is important.
Well, that’s what I think anyway.
As I said earlier, sorry to come across as jumping on something you said.
It’s good to hear others views, and I think Jess’ blog is an excellent place to share with informed, polite and lovely people.
Take care,
S
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Apropos of Struans’ comment as to the definition of a ‘Christian’, this is not actually as simple as it sounds!
The first and foremost definition though is still this: “Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.”
Even most non-Christians believe in Jesus’s existence and goodness, but they refuse to believe in His Divinity.
So naturally if follows that if one denies this fact, he/she cannot call themselves a ‘Christian’ in the true sense of its meaning.
Perhaps because happily being a ‘Christian’ conjures up so many good qualities – hope that never changes! – we still use the word as an adjective to describe those who manifest the virtues of love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness etc., whether they are ‘real Christians’ or not! 🙂
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Hey, where’s the reply button above? Anyway,@ Struans at 2:58pm
No hard feelings Struans ;-), and many thanks for a great explanation that I concur with 100%.
Off to do my backlog of ironing now, and to listen to your videos meanwhile. 🙂
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Just want to add that NEO made that same point as you Struans when he (amusingly) asked what was the point of a “coffee shop full of do-gooders”? We need to KNOW our Christian Faith too.
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Indeed 🙂
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kathleen – I think that once someone else comes in, one can only do as you have; it appears to be a quirk of the system. Glad I am not the only one who finds ironing the perfect opportunity to listen to something serious.
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