My attention was piqued by the attribution of the word ‘Purgatory’ to an Alexandrian of the fourth century. The word itself is of Latin derivation, and I can find no genuine case of it being used before the fifth century. It is clearly an attempt to apply the concept to whatever word Cyril used, but it cannot have meant for him what it meant to a Latin Rite Catholic writing in 1936. I am still unable to source the quotation, but I am able to say what Cyril thought happened after death. He thought that when we died some went to heaven and some to hell, so when he refers to whatever word a much later author translated as ‘Purgatory’ he is referring to the fires of hell. There was, and remains, no concept of ‘purgatory’ as it exist in the Western Church in the churches of the East. As Pope Innocent IV (1243-54) acknowledged:
Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.
When the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Kiev came into communion with Rome in 1595 it was agreed:
5.—We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.
The Church, as opposed to individuals within it, has been very cautious in what it says about Purgatory, and much of what Geoffrey and others think is doctrine, is actually a matter of opinion: the Church has never defined Purgatory as an actual place; neither has it stated that it is a place of torment. So what is it? It is a process of purification for those whose souls as still stained with sin. What, Geoffrey will ask, is the Blood of the Lamb not enough? Of course it is, that is why these souls are not already in Hell.
The notion of our sins being burnt away is, if one accepts Catholic teaching, in Scripture, although as Geoffrey shows, one can choose to read them in anohter fashion. But the testimony of the Fathers (including St Cyril) that one’s sins needed burning away (which is where the idea of fire came from) is so unanimous that one has to ask why the Reformers of the sixteenth century thought they knew better?
The Eastern Orthodox, whilst hotly denying they believe in Purgatory do believe in an intermediate state known as ‘Hades’ in which, after the particular judgement which occurs after death, the blessed souls bound for Heaven will be purified before the General Judgement on the Last day. This, they say, is not Purgatory. Well, they can call it what they will, it is in no way incompatible with what the Catholic Church teaches.
Now, it may be correct, as Geoffrey and other Protestants say, that the teaching of the whole of the ancient Church (those who called the intermediate state purgatory and those who do not) is wrong, and they alone are right. But the Catholics and the Orthodox do not say we are not saved by the Blood of the Lamb – for assuredly we are. What they do say is that Holy Scripture and experience give us cause to believe that when we die, not all those wom we might think are bound for hell, are actually going there. That seems to me a line quite compatible with the God of mercy in whom we all believe.
Francis said:
As a Catholic, I having been following this discussion with interest. My own view is the same (I think) as Pope Benedict: that when we die, loving God in our frail fashion but still aware of “the chances we have missed, the graces we resist” as the hymn puts it, we meet Christ no longer through a glass darkly but face-to-face. That instantaneous encounter, when the perfect God-Man gazes into our souls more deeply, lovingly, searchingly than we have ever been able to do ourselves here in this in life, is the instant of “purgation” – for want of a better word. In that instant, we are made aware of all our pitiful subterfuges, excuses, mean-spiritedness in not responding in life to the Love shown to us – and that self-understanding causes a searing pain as we long now to “do the things we ought to have done”. In our pain and in response to the wordless loving gaze of our Saviour and His question “Do you love Me?”, we answer “Yes!”. The moment of purgative agony passes and we join Him forever.
For me Purgatory is not a place invented by Catholics in order to annoy Protestants; it is that ‘inner fire’ of sorrow and remorse on discovering the reality of divine Love for the first time at the moment of our death.
Those who cannot bear the gaze of Christ have already made their own choice – not to be with Him.
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chalcedon451 said:
Excellent account Francis. You will see, as the series progresses, that I am very much in agreement with you.
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Servus Fidelis said:
In fact Purgatory almost sounds to me like being in the state of mind as one who says they are saved and who fully presume upon God that they will remain that way the rest of their lives and are guaranteed Heaven for their reward of accepting Christ’s Saving Gift; only in Purgatory, nobody is presuming that fact as they definitively know it. Their pain is thought to be concerned mostly with their temporary separation from God which they thirst for ever stronger as they become more perfect in the Grace Christ won for them.
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chalcedon451 said:
Good thought, my friend. I am much attracted to Francis’ ideas here.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Explain?
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chalcedon451 said:
I don’t know if you saw Francis’ earlier comment in this thread – she seems to me to have a good set of thoughts. It is the comment box.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Yes, I liked that as well. When we say Francis these days, our minds run from the Pope to the Saints of the same name. Understood and her thoughts are as good as any in expelling the mercy that God shows His adopted children.
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chalcedon451 said:
That is the key Servus – God’s mercy – which, like His Justice we cannot understand as He is as high above us as the moutains are the sea.
I see that Geoffrey has just posted.
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Servus Fidelis said:
. . . typo: meant to type explaining instead of expelling: big difference.
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St Bosco said:
Holy Scripture and experience give us cause to believe that when we die, not all those wom we might think are bound for hell, are actually going there.
Experience? Can you explain this a little furthur? Have the departed sent letters home detailing what happens in the afterlife? Thanks i advance
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chalcedon451 said:
Happy to oblige Bosco. We might think, for example, that someone not in our church, or someone who does not think they have been born again cannot go to Heaven. That is our frail thought. God might decide quite otherwise – He alone judges.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Chalcedon, how does a guess count as experience? Thanks for your answer. In scientific circles, experience is seeing something happen. Like having something blow up in ones face. Thats experience.
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chalcedon451 said:
Experience would be the stories of visions of those who have been gifted with them Bosco – the visions of the children of Fatima for example.
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St Bosco said:
Thanks good brother Chalcedon. i was curious to know what experience there was with the afterlife. We do have the words of One who did die and come back. We can search the scriptures and see what the Master says about purgatory. That should settle it.
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chalcedon451 said:
But remember, Jesus said nothing about the afterlife after rising from the dead.
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Mark said:
Have you read
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html
By Scott Hahn, Enjoy
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Servus Fidelis said:
Thank you for that Mark. Another awesome article by Scott Hahn that brings much light to this discussion on Purgatory.
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chalcedon451 said:
I had not – thank you for the reference.
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