Tags
church politics, controversy, love, Obedience, self denial, sin
If you are an Anglican you get used to the fact that your Church deals publicly with what other churches sweep under carpets or pretend does not exist at all.
No one with any knowledge of the Anglican or Catholic Churches can be in any doubt that there are a number of clergy who are gay. I have a cousin who left the Anglican seminary where he was training because of the pervasive ‘gay culture’. Those in charge of the college knew what was going on but they turned a blind eye to it. Such things are not confined to Anglican seminaries.
So, when, as now, the Church of England makes an announcementt that gay men in a celibate relationship can become bishops, it raises hackles. I really can’t see why. There is no sin in being inclined to love someone of the same sex; the sin comes in acting on that. If one is that way inclined and one does not act on it, or if one has acted on it and repented, then it is hard to see what the objection is?
I can understand that the gay lobby dislike having to admit that what they prefer to do in bed is sinful – but that is what the Church teaches. I can understand orthodox Christian not liking people having been in gay sexual relations. But what is the problem if one has repented and amended one’s life. We don’t tell other sinners they can’t ever be priests or bishops; so why discriminate against this one set of sinners?
I see that there are some on the Evangelical wing who are saying that the requirement to be celibate is ‘unenforceable’ – well so is the requirement to have truly repented of one’s sins before one takes Communion. We have to learn to trust people, and if we require some special test for one group of sinners, we need to think about the message that sends out.
Why is it so hard for many Christians to do what is at the heart of our faith – to repent and forgive? To object to the latest move by the Anglican Church is simply to ignore the fact that some of those who wish to become priests self-identify as gay. We’re effectively saying that as long as Father X does not create a scandal, we will look the other way. Is it not more Christian to say that as long as Father X has repented of his sins and refrains from repeating them, then he can be a bishop if those who make these decisions think he is up to it?
Pretending the problem does not exist simply means that it is never dealt with. The Catholic Church knows it has gay priests, and it likes to act as though the fact that they are supposed to be celibate means they don’t act on their instincts – but since when did ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ actually deal with the issue?
My church is getting a lot of flak for this decision, but I am proud of its courage in being able to have a grown-up conversation in public about this issue. For years we have all pretended that if we did not notice that there were gay priests, we could all ignore it and its implications for our churches. That is not good. What the C of E has just done is good.
I agree, I think it is one of the strengths of your church-to put it right out there in the store window and thrash it out.
And we all need to remember to forgive the sinner, WE have to take the sinners word, and if you’re up for a bishopric, one would think one would know the consequences of lying to God.
It is a hard one, because of the feelings it arouses – but the fact is there is a problem, and this seems a good way of dealing with it. Yes, of course, people tell lies, but as you say, those who wish to be bishops know to whom they are lying – and the consequences.
Yes, and they are sinners like us, and will fall back on occasion, which prompts me to say, So what.
Indeed – failure is not falling, it is not trying to get up and do better.
That is a most wonderful way of putting that-As soon as I find a context, I’m stealing!!
You’re most welcome sir
xx
Thank you, Ma’am!
xx
Has brother Chalcedon got his way and banned me? If not, id like to agree with sister Jess. The anglican and catholic seminaries are called Pink Palaces. Hotbeds of homosexuality.
No, you’re not banned Bosco – and Happy New Year to you
Hopefully some of if not all the Catholic seminaries and monasteries have instituted psychological tests for prospective priests and monks. I know of at least one who has.
I totally disagree with your assessment Jess. Homosexual tendencies in and of themselves are disordered. They are not sinful unless acted upon as you have stated but the psychological disorder still exists and opens the doors to all other ‘harmless’ disorders (both physical and psychological). What if you suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder or had only 1 arm, would the priesthood be a proper place for these people who are to represent Christ at the altar? The restrictions on the priesthood still exist in the Catholic Church and simply because some bishops and priests are illicitly giving them a pass does not make it right. This is what needs to be regained within the Church along with many other worldly ideas that need to be expunged or reformed. If publicly known, these priests or bishops would have to resign per Catholic Canon Law or be removed from their posts. The Catholic Church at least by law is very strict about who can be a priest. We used to check for many abnormalities such as things like melancholia and other personality disorders. If you didn’t make the grade, you could not become a priest. After all, the priesthood isn’t just a job like any other: it has a dignity that far exceeds any other. To let this position disintegrate into a church position like treasurer or grounds keeper is an affront to the Priesthood and all it stands for. Many others wanted to possess the dignity of Aaron’s priesthood and we see how God dealt with that. It should be no different in our day – we need not bend to the world’s newly acquired sense of acceptance regarding psychological abnormalities.
I totally disagree with your assessment Jess.
Ditto.
Fair enough Jabba – but what, practically, is to be done about this problem? I agree with SF, but do you or he really think your church is going to do that? I think you will find that many seminaries have a gay subculture within them – your church has done nothing about this and is not, realistically, going to. So what is to be done? A continuance of the current hypocrisy?
Yes, dear friend, it would be better if it were to be as you describe, but given that it is not, and not likely to be, what else is to be done?
You are largely wrong on your assessment here as well. The Catholic Church, thanks to our Holy Father, has demanded that our seminaries be reformed and it has largely taken place in the US already. Our new priest are not homosexuals and they are a much holier lot that their predecessors. Orthodoxy has once again become a prerequisite to becoming a priest. If the Anglicans did the same, you might have a fighting chance. To give air to “open debate” is paramount to giving these dissenters legitimacy. We cannot just give into the modernism that prevails in the world. I for one will continue to fight for what is right. The old guard is dying off and their modernistic tendencies with them. In the end, the Church will reform and the CofE might want to emulate that movement back to Christ and the Biblical values that have largely been abandoned.
I hope you are right SF – but here it is not so.
Jess, it may take longer in the UK but it will happen. JPII and Pope Benedict have done much in cleaning out the ranks and installing nuncios that are more reflective of the wishes of Rome. These seminarians will not be well received by Rome if they are still largely homosexual and unorthodox. Their days will either be numbered or they will rush to the Episcopal or Anglican church to escape the wrath of Rome. And for my money, they can have them. We don’t want them.
I do hope you are right.
Have faith dear lady, have faith.
Sometimes dear friend it is hard – but I thank you for your reminder – very timely
xx
I fear that in the short term our faith will be tried far more than this. Let us pray that we have the courage and the strength for the fight.
xx
A good article Jess. Constructive debate always leads towards a better stumbling of humanity towards the truth that is God.
A happy New Year to you and C451
S
And to you struans – and thank you for your continuing help
xx
What’s provocative is that Bishops are our exemplars and teachers of moral life, so that is why, in Catholicism, they are completely forbidden from ever claiming that sin is OK. And sex outside marriage is not OK, but it is sinful.
Jessica – I agree with you to an extent in that being homosexual involves no deliberate choice and so no abuse of freewill and that it therefore cannot be sinful in itself. However, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the only homosexual sin would be a physical act of sodomy.
I wonder why a celibate man would want to be in a “civil partnership”. What purpose does would it serve? If he is to be believed (and I agree I suppose he should be) then it seems to me that what he wants is to have a homosexual marriage minus the sex. The question therefore is this: is the sex the necessary condition for sin, or is a deliberate embrace of a homosexual lifestyle also wrong?
Surely to embrace a homosexual lifestyle is just as much to act on one’s homosexual orientation as homosexual sex would be. The action has a different form, but the intention is the same. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as it where.
I would argue that to embrace such a homosexual lifestyle is an implicit rejection of the Creator’s plan for man as revealed in Genesis. The priest effectively wants to have a marriage without TWO essential component necessities: 1) A woman. and 2) Sex. He is living out a deliberate rejection of Church teaching.
I invite you to consider this – suppose the priest was living with a woman to who he was in a romantic relationship but to whom he was not married. Even if he was celibate, would we consider this appropriate?
By the way, more than seven years ago the Vatican stated (in a much more public and transparent fashion than the CoE, by the way) that henceforth homosexual men would be excluded from training for the priesthood (whether celibate or not) as it was incompatible with the priestly vocation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/1499047/The-Pope-to-exclude-gay-priests.html
Chris – a very thoughtful response – which certainly makes me think again.
I can’t, of course, answer for what a gay man might want from a civil partnership – unless, of course, it is the legal rights it confers.
I agree that the problem is a difficult one – but I am not seeing what other solution there is – as the current situation in both churches could not, surely, be thought tolerable?
Jess,
The issue is that the C of E is moving beyond, letting gays be Bishops, to blessing their civil relationships. The argument is that as long as it’s not marriage, it’s fine. I do not see the point, since it’s a stepping stone to marriage, and is being treated like a marriage. It’s like a semantics game.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17078#.UPRukZj7D-s
That is, indeed the grave danger, you are right.
Another problem with the anomaly of homosexual attraction that is largely lost on most people and rarely express is that this attraction is the highest form of self worship. It is the desire to make love to the image and likeness of oneself. This narcissism is a rejection of God and a complete embrace of self. It is, as I said, disordered and a perversion of what God created.
I am not in disagreement, dear friend, but certainly here in the UK there is no sign of the Catholic Bishops doing anything about the problem – so the hypocrisy continues, which can’t be good.
The present rank of Bishops are old and frozen in the modernism that prevailed after the Council. It’s not hypocrisy really, it is apostasy. It will falter as all apostasies and heresies do.
That is a reassuring thought, dear friend.
I hope so Jess. We can’t just cave on these things. We must support the restoration of our Churches even if we are like Noah and nobody else seems to agree. God’s Will will indeed be done in the end.
You are right my friend
I am glad that the catholic church has or trying to change the culture of the seminaries which has turned away many who were called.
There are always collateral damages when choices are made, The President set aside the don’t ask, don’t tell policy, by executive order for the US Military. Part of that collateral damage in the US Navy is the number of rapes between same sex members of the Navy has doubled to 746 convictions(of the 4,000 reported), in the last two years. The problem with the military is love, will you send the person you love out to face danger, or will you send someone else who has had too many missions in the barrel against someone you love, who has none. This will cause stress and will destroy the unit. Every soldier has his lucky spoon, or soup can, or towel or something to keep him safe, but the luck and the safety is only for a limited time, so it must be shared. Love stops the sharing of danger and endangers the loved and lover and last more importantly, the mission.
A question of curiosity… it may have been dealt with, but time doesn’t permit me to read all of the replies. By the biblical definition of confession (to stand in agreement with God) and repentance (to turn from the sin), can this person in question still be labeled a homosexual? If they have agreed with God that their chosen lifestyle is sin, and have turned from it to Christ, are they still to be labeled as gay?
Personally, the problem I have with this whole drama is why someone who has agreed that Jesus is Savior and Lord would want to bring attention to themselves by even making this whole mess an issue. It seems to me that all who are changed by the gospel, made new creations in Christ, stand with the old Baptist, “He must increase and I must decrease.” I’m just not so sure this isn’t all a plot to bring attention where it shouldn’t be brought. But then… I’ve been wrong before, and besides… who am I?
The understanding of the church it is the act that is sinful not the person per say.; If I have a temper but control it, there is no sin, Confession is asking pardon from God, because he is the one sinned against first. Confession is a means to use grace to remake you so, you will become aware of who you are, and where you are lacking in using grace to remake your self into Christ. You are many things, you can be a potential thief, a potential liar, a potential murder, but you are not one thing you are many things. The church teaches we are all saved by grace and by works with the works a byproduct of grace, we are free we can reject grace at any time, we can reject grace with our dying breath, we are free. Paul said faith hope and charity of these charity is the greatest. charity is love and love is shown in works to our fellow humans. We can have the grace, but we must not be an empty vessel. We are the fruit of the vine of Jesus. We are the hands of Christ not his head. Think of how many times Jesus talks of the servant who is found working, the servant who increases the talents and the one who does not, those who are called into the vineyard must first work then they are paid. The sin of a person who is homosexual is in the act, just as the sin of stealing, being a liar, or a murder is in the act. How we are judged is God’s not mine, I have served those in the hospital with AID’s, They are God’s too and we must be God’s also and wash the feet of those we can. Mother Teresa saw each she served as Christ, (Mat 25:35) I see the beggars on the bridge, who is Christ? It is very hard to be a Christian, you must give everything or nothing, there is no middle ground. Who is Christ?